Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work?

[BiddeldyBwah]

Sat contemplating life as normal and started thinking about this.

Anyone can do the 18th and the testing and inspection qualifications.

So is it not theoretically possible to do those and simply specialise in testing and inspection? I mean why go through installation courses etc if you can just get a job doing testing with two paid-for courses?

Or am i missing the mark here? Do you need other specific quals to be able to do the certs? Of course i know that you won't be able to do a CPS without experience first but you could work under someone else acting as QS at a company and do testing all day long, no? I know at our company the boss acts as QS and all the NAPIT etc stuff is under him but the other qualified lads (the ones with 2391 and the 18th edition) do the testing.

 

[LastManOnline]

Needing several years of shadowing someone after being qualified and certified seems a bit much to be honest.

I comepletely agree. We spend several years learning how to do things correctly. Why would we need several years more to recoqnize when things have been done incorrectly.?

 

[Julie.]

...
. I can appreciate though that in the UK there is a greater need for electrical checks due to the prevalence of DIY electrical work

This really, I think we have all come across appalling work , Ireland may be different, but most of the EU (and other areas to which the regs apply) allow diy stuff, although in my experience very poor/dangerous work isn't exclusive to diy by any margin!!

 

[LastManOnline]

Ireland may be different,

It's not. As you say all countries allow for a measure of DIY work. But it's usually of the plugtop and ceiling rose variety.Whereas, as the threads on this forum demonstrate on a daily basis, in the UK the average diyer can virtually do as he pleases

 

[Julie.]

It's not. As you say all countries allow for a measure of DIY work. But it's usually of the plugtop and ceiling rose variety.Whereas, as the threads on this forum demonstrate on a daily basis, in the UK the average diyer can virtually do as he pleases

Same in Germany, perhaps the average German is better educated than the average UK diyer, however you can find just as many videos and diy examples throughout the area covered by these regulations.

It perhaps looks worse on this site as so many work in the uk and post their findings

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

I comepletely agree. We spend several years learning how to do things correctly. Why would we need several years more to recoqnize when things have been done incorrectly.?

Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic but my thoughts are this is a forum for electricians. The types of electricians that come on forums after work to discuss....work, are the types that are sticklers for being the best, for being high standard, for having less tolerance of less than perfect.

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo. There are several guys at work who are very very far from perfect sparks and their knowledge is lacking compared to most on here, but they've passed their 2391's and they do a fine job of testing commercial, domestic and industrial installs.

Needing several years post-training and certification to even become competent as some claim is fairly absurd imo and is trying to hold people to unrealistic standards that not many in the real world care about. And it's to the detriment of few, too. People at my work make mistakes and nobody cares, it gets spotted, rectified and we move on with our lives without poking holes in what we see as 'incompetence' when in reality it's just 'less than perfect'.

 

[Julie.]

Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic but my thoughts are this is a forum for electricians. The types of electricians that come on forums after work to discuss....work, are the types that are sticklers for being the best, for being high standard, for having less tolerance of less than perfect.

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo. There are several guys at work who are very very far from perfect sparks and their knowledge is lacking compared to most on here, but they've passed their 2391's and they do a fine job of testing commercial, domestic and industrial installs.

Needing several years post-training and certification to even become competent as some claim is fairly absurd imo and is trying to hold people to unrealistic standards that not many in the real world care about. And it's to the detriment of few, too. People at my work make mistakes and nobody cares, it gets spotted, rectified and we move on with our lives without poking holes in what we see as 'incompetence' when in reality it's just 'less than perfect'.

But there is a difference between doing the work to current standards (and testing); and inspecting installations which cover work complying with various standards over the last 30-40 years.


For example, it is one thing to be a fully qualified car mechanic, but only a few obtain sufficient experience and compliance with standards to perform mots - even fewer that can inspect hgv, psv etc.

These are the ones who after learning just like every other mechanic, gain experience and then get assessed to ensure a consistent standard for mots

(Now, I know we can say they are not completely consistent, but they are more so than the current situation with EICRs.)

Imagine a rough mechanic who has only worked on cars, should they automatically be allowed to certify a hgv as safe with nothing more than their initial mechanic training and "experiance"?

That's basically the equivalent to some electrician who completed their training, and now can EICR anything out there...

 

[pc1966]

It perhaps looks worse on this site as so many work in the uk and post their findings

Indeed. To some extent this site reflects the best & worst of UK electrics as it has quite a few very good electricians on it that clearly have pride in their work and often are not afraid to ask questions when they don't know, which is the only way to learn (well, it is cheaper than blowing stuff up several times...).

So when folks come across really bad stuff it gets posted, and we can criticise, laugh, or occasionally think "but for the grace of god..."

But not all of the crap work is DIY, some if it is by p-poor sparks that are the equivalent of dodgy garages for car repairs, etc.

Without any examination of other country's electrical installations on equal terms it is hard to say just how much better or worse they are compared to the UK in terms of dodgy installation.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Don't disagree, but we have two people, (Alice and Bob?), both qualified 20 years ago, both worked in the industry, both mentored/shadowed by two others working in the industry, however one of these was mentored by someone who was incompetent.

Which one is it?

Both Alice and Bob believe they know what they are doing as they have both learnt well from their mentor.

We really need to identify whether Bob or Alice has actually achieved the level required, not just assume that because they both qualified years ago and have varied experience since, then they must actually be competent

Don't disagree, but we have two people, (Alice and Bob?), both qualified 20 years ago, both worked in the industry, both mentored/shadowed by two others working in the industry, however one of these was mentored by someone who was incompetent.

Which one is it?

Both Alice and Bob believe they know what they are doing as they have both learnt well from their mentor.

We really need to identify whether Bob or Alice has actually achieved the level required, not just assume that because they both qualified years ago and have varied experience since, then they must actually be competent

My cat is named Bob. He's a bit clueless, therefore I reckon Alice is best choice.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo.

There's a grain of truth in that, but it's not a great premise for doing inspection and testing. I wouldn't hire you or anyone with that attitude. If I am hiring someone to test and inspect, it's because I want to know exactly what is wrong with the installation. The same as when I use a measuring instrument I want to know a voltage or resistance to reasonable accuracy with excellent reliability, I don't want a half-a**ed answer that might or might not be the voltage. I don't want an inspector who might or might not know what to look for.

Any fool can be taught what length nails to use to fix a socket on the wall, but it takes ninja detective skills to know whether the nails are the right length just by looking at the heads. And you can't learn that from a book. Here's a real example you won't learn on any course but you might learn from experience. Look at the pic of the socket outlet. Seeing this should put you on increased alert for a specific potential problem with the wiring. What is it, and why is this particular socket a warning sign?

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

If I am hiring someone to test and inspect, it's because I want to know exactly what is wrong with the installation.

Joe Public wants to get problems fixed.

I'm not sure what you're saying but it appears to be 'don't hire those without vast experience' which is one of the great problems in this industry.

At the end of the day you only ever really learn by doing so imo if you have your 2391 you're good to go. That's not good enough for those who are anaI about fine and often unnecessary details (like wanting to know exactly what's wrong with something instead of simply wanting it fixed) but you're a small breed and in the real world someone who has passed the courses is going to know how to suss out most of what they come across.

As i've said, those who come on forums to discuss work are often obsessed with 'doing it right' or being seen to be doing it 'better' than others. Rightly or wrongly that leads to unrealistic standards like needing 'several years' of testing before being deemed competent to test despite being a qualified electrician with a testing qualification. It's just internet high standards that don't apply in real life because normally people aren't so finickity.

As for the pic i would hazard a guess that the screw head is blackened. Apart from that, and being too close to the floor, it just looks a bit old and manky.

 

[littlespark]

Is the socket from LN open to anyone, or just trying to get a point across?

I’ve not read the past posts, but I’m thinking there is some confusion between testing, and periodic inspection…. Which really is two separate things.

I was always pressed at the 18th about knowledge, experience AND understanding.

You needed all 3

 

[LastManOnline]

Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic

No sarcasm intended. (Am not a fan of sarcasm)

 

[LastManOnline]

Indeed. To some extent this site reflects the best & worst of UK electrics.

Good point. My view (in my limited experience on the site) is that the "best" is really good. And by that I mean better than anywhere else I, ve been involved in, in the industry . On the other hand, the "worst" is as poor, or poorer than I have seen elsewhere.
I wonder if the more liberal, less regulated manner of the UK electrical industry is responsible for that (just my opinion).

 

[Julie.]

Joe Public wants to get problems fixed.

...... needing 'several years' of testing before being deemed competent to test despite being a qualified electrician with a testing qualification. It's just internet high standards that don't apply in real life because normally people aren't so finickity.
...

Which is why the correct standards shouldn't be controlled by the customer base or the industry itself.

For normal installations (and fault finding), I do think 18th + 2391 part 1 + apprenticeship experience is sufficient.

However for EICRs , this should be controlled and subject to years of experience; with 2391 part 2, only those with considerable experience tend to be successful.

Any car driver can drive and perhaps teach someone else to drive (diyer instead of getting a professional in) but ultimately the inspector aka driving examiner is selected and trained for this purpose by a proper authority, not someone who has been driving for years, so "should be able to".

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Is the socket from LN open to anyone,

Yes crack on, the OP doesn't seem very interested in locating fire hazards, more in guessing and waffling:

As for the pic i would hazard a guess..... it just looks a bit old and manky.

And trolling, although it is an interesting discussion that's worth having and he does raise some relevant points.