UK Gas Cooker conked and electrical cooker replacement

advicewelcom · Nov 5, 2021

Hi, quick posting - welcome any advice as new to this stuff...

Have a Howden HJA 0150 gas grill/oven with a broken thermostat that and can't get a replacement (grill igniting but no gas coming out of oven burners when on).

The Howden grill/oven is on a ring in the kitchen which has following appliances on it:
-microwave
-fridge freezer
-kettle
-toaster
-a Howden gas hob
-the busted Howden grill/oven
-couple of kitchen sockets generally not used

It all goes back to a RCD with a fuse that says - MTN132 b32 hanger fuse

There is an electrical wall connection for the grill/oven, with (I think) a 6mm wire for the ring (and not the thicker 10mm wires used for showers).

I may want to replace with just an electrical gill/oven. So some questions...

-Is there is max kilowatt oven that I could just wire into the current wall socket (which is used for the current grill/oven electrical ignition connection)?

-Would I need to replace the fuse in the RCD for the main? And is so with what?

-Would these things ensure the fuse would not trip if the oven was switched on?

-There are lots of electrical ovens but the instructions say they should be wired directly to the fuse box, so wondering if there is one which can just run from this ring main (if I upgrade the fuse)?

Would hate to buy an electrical oven and then its a nightmare and expense to fit it (the fuse box is currently full).

Welcome advice.

(attached pic of gas connection, and wall sockets for hob and grill/oven)

nicebutdim · Dec 20, 2021

advicewelcom said:
Dying of Covid is nothing we can do about on this forum, dying from electrical shock is ;-) Good suggestion, I can fit a fly lead but looks like its been discussed quite a bit and seems not required by the regs as earthing happens through the lug for recessed back boxes (@ 2:22). Looks more applicable for surface mounted boxes.

Remember that old adage about 'a little knowledge'.

Deleted account · Dec 20, 2021

DPG said:
Surely this needs an electrician in. It's very close to step-by-step instructions on reconfiguring a circuit.

I think the above post needs seeing again.

advicewelcom · Dec 22, 2021

Thanks for past advice. Washing machine ordered for tomorrow (does not come with a wire) and assume there is calculation for a 2.3KW oven to determine the wiring requirement (2.5mm T&E would do the job I assume for 10A)?

Also those darn screws are not going into the backbox lugs easily and holding the front socket in, not sure if this is another newbie question - but if the back box is a bit warped is the suggestion to re-tap the lug thread or use something to fix it (removing the backbox would be a headache).

brianmoooore · Dec 22, 2021

Most domestic sparkies carry a 3.5mm thread cleaning/reforming tool in their toolbox.

advicewelcom · Dec 23, 2021

brianmoooore said:
Most domestic sparkies carry a 3.5mm thread cleaning/reforming tool in their toolbox.

Ta - figured as much.

Almost there, just a query about lead installation from oven to wall FCU...
-2300W / 230v = 10Amps current expected through the electric oven lead at max.
-Understand that 2.5mm T&E does 24Amps circa (but not sure about unburied).
-Fuse in FCU would need to be 13Amps

If I have some spare 2.5mm T&E - this going to be okay for unburied oven lead to FCU?

Should I go for 4mm if unburied?

(BEKO manuals are flippin' useless and googlin is ambiguous).

brianmoooore · Dec 23, 2021

Will the temperature around the cable reach or exceed 70 degrees at any point?

telectrix · Dec 23, 2021

advicewelcom said:
Ta - figured as much.

Almost there, just a query about lead installation from oven to wall FCU...
-2300W / 230v = 10Amps current expected through the electric oven lead at max.
-Understand that 2.5mm T&E does 24Amps circa (but not sure about unburied).
-Fuse in FCU would need to be 13Amps

If I have some spare 2.5mm T&E - this going to be okay for unburied oven lead to FCU?

Should I go for 4mm if unburied?

(BEKO manuals are flippin' useless and googlin is ambiguous).

2.5mm cable will be fine.

advicewelcom · Dec 23, 2021

brianmoooore said:
Will the temperature around the cable reach or exceed 70 degrees at any point?

Oh, Dunno.. is a standard 60cm x 60xm x 60cm oven space, so assume not.

https://bekoplc.blob.core.windows.net/bekoupload/manuals/BBIF22300.pdf

2.5mm will be okay I think, if you violently disagree welcome hearing back.

westward10 · Dec 23, 2021

How are going to terminate this 2.5 cable from the FCU.

brianmoooore · Dec 23, 2021

2.5mm2 will be fine. It's 2.5mm2 what that matters. I wouldn't be using 6242Y

DPG · Dec 23, 2021

Be interesting if it's coming out of the front flex outlet of an FCU !

advicewelcom · Dec 23, 2021

DPG said:
Be interesting if it's coming out of the front flex outlet of an FCU !

Oven Wiring - https://photos.app.goo.gl/7QLDMB6tawSqNdtB8

Switched FCU's under counter next to gas plumbing - one for hob (I assume) other on right side for current gas oven.

westward10 · Dec 23, 2021

advicewelcom said:
Oven Wiring - https://photos.app.goo.gl/7QLDMB6tawSqNdtB8

Switched FCU's under counter next to gas plumbing - one for hob (I assume) other on right side for current gas oven.

So how are you going to connect this 2.5 cable.

advicewelcom · Jan 3, 2022

Hi, its all fitted a looks great. So thanks a lot for past advice(!)

Was a bit worried about the power wire on the back touching the oven when pushing it in.

But so far, no issues with it, or with any of the circuits tripping.

advicewelcom · Jan 3, 2022

Did have another issue which someone on here may have an idea about?

The gas man who sealed off the connection said that was a small leak on the mains pipe that feeds the meter. He stuck some fairy liquid on it and there was a small bubble. I called Cadent who (after 4 hrs of messing around) changed the external pipping to the meter with some engineers during the evening.

The Cadent engineer then said there was a 2millibar drop showing and despite checking all the appliances with his sniffer (boiler, cut off gas seal for new oven, gas heaters, etc). cut off the gas on Christmas eve. I was horrified as there was no heating (even if the oven was working) on Crimbo day.

Does anyone know if they are allowed to cut the gas like this to a residential house when there has been no reported smell of gas, all appliances have been tested and the millibar drop on a tightness test is only showing 2millibar??

James · Jan 3, 2022

By the sounds of it they had to turn the gas off to repair something to do with the meter or the supply to it.

they will not be able to turn the gas to the property back on if there is a leak, unfortunately you are going to need the services of a gas safe registered plumber to find and repair the fault(s) within your house.

advicewelcom · Jan 3, 2022

James said:
By the sounds of it they had to turn the gas off to repair something to do with the meter or the supply to it.

Yes, correct, in fact they used some balloon thing to stop the gas coming out before the shut out valve, so they could replace the shut of valve with a new one.

James said:
they will not be able to turn the gas to the property back on if there is a leak, unfortunately you are going to need the services of a gas safe registered plumber to find and repair the fault(s) within your house.

Apparently suppliers (British Gas) etc accept small leaks as long as there is no smell of gas (I think 8millibars depending on the meter in the house) - Cadent have permittable levels of a small gas leaks (as long as there is no smell of gas) as well, but in this instance they seem to have ignored their own operation procedures and just capped off all the gas to the house.

At the beginning the engineer kept blaming me by saying I reported a "smell of gas" which I did not (it was the fairy liquid around the shut of valve that alerted to the minor leak around the shut of valve) not any smell - and they could have listened to the call in to verify that. The shut of valve is high up in the garage and its so well ventilated it would have been impossible to smell any minor gas around that area in anycase.

I think its got something to do with them passing the buck to someone else to re-open the gas so they can escape any blame. Was a horrible thing to do at that time. Is there some recourse to this action if its not in line with their operating protocols?

James · Jan 3, 2022

I think a chat with a good independent gas fitter would be the best place to start.
they are going to be in a far better position to advise than a bunch of electricians.

advicewelcom · Jan 3, 2022

James said:
I think a chat with a good independent gas fitter would be the best place to start.
they are going to be in a far better position to advise than a bunch of electricians.

Got the gas turned back already by calling out an independent gas engineer (he was shocked by what they did as well).

Just was curious if anyone in this forum knew about the dark arts of Cadent. There was massive consequences to them cutting gas off on Christmas eve when there are elderly and vulnerable people in the house that could not stay at other people's houses due to Covid risks - and have no heating, no hob, no hot water. Terrible thing for them to do and think I should pursue it - so it does not happen to anyone else.

Deleted account · Jan 4, 2022

I know Gas suppliers have more powers than The police in gaining entry to turn off gas in an emergency. So they can turn off your gas if it’s not deemed safe.

the supplier was correct not to turn on the gas until such time as the installationnwas deemed safe. They have a duty of care.

We electricians do not hav3 the power to turn off anyone’s electrics even if we think it’s dangerous.
However if we turn the power off to do some testing or a job and find the installation is unsafe, we cannot turn the power back on until such time as it is made safe.

so7nds like the same thing really, but it’s not.

DPG · Jan 4, 2022

advicewelcom said:
Got the gas turned back already by calling out an independent gas engineer (he was shocked by what they did as well).

Just was curious if anyone in this forum knew about the dark arts of Cadent. There was massive consequences to them cutting gas off on Christmas eve when there are elderly and vulnerable people in the house that could not stay at other people's houses due to Covid risks - and have no heating, no hob, no hot water. Terrible thing for them to do and think I should pursue it - so it does not happen to anyone else.

Difficult to say without knowing the full story, but imagine the headlines if they switched the supply back on when there was a leak, and something went wrong.

Deleted account · Jan 4, 2022

advicewelcom said:
Terrible thing for them to do and think I should pursue it - so it does not happen to anyone else.

It would have been a terrible thing to put you and the household at risk. Pursuing this would be a waste of time as the engineers will be backed up all the way on this one.

He was protecting you and did what was in the best interests of anyone within the house.

westward10 · Jan 4, 2022

DPG said:
Difficult to say without knowing the full story, but imagine the headlines if they switched the supply back on when there was a leak, and something went wrong.

Like poor electrical connections

advicewelcom · Jan 4, 2022

"Safe" is ambiguous, so there is an Operating manual which was ignored.

nicebutdim · Jan 4, 2022

advicewelcom said:
"Safe" is ambiguous, so there is an Operating manual which was ignored.

I'm not sure there's much mileage in arguing this point on a forum for electricians.

UK Gas Cooker conked and electrical cooker replacement

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