1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves

marconi said:

murd_the_nerd:

Please remove the wires marked with a short blue dash in the attachment called 'disconnection'. Label them so you know were to connect them back to. Put the ends of these wires inside a connector so they do not touch anything. This will disconnect the valves and the heater.

Buy three neon lamps like these:

IND5032405-240-T/RD | CAMDENBOSS Red Indicator, 240V, 8mm Mounting Hole Size, Lead Wires Termination | RS Components - https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/indicators/0576181?cm_mmc=UK-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-CSS_UK_EN_Displays_%26_Optoelectronics_Whoop-_-Indicators_Whoop-_-576181&matchtype=&aud-832474874771la-302376642891&gclid=CjwKCAiAgvKQBhBbEiwAaPQw3PKQPeh7zExzTVve1WMoT2jRpbFI38x3yiulbOparbQKTL-P_mZxfxoC1tgQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

They are 230V ac neon indicators pre-wired with leads. Amazon will do them.

Labels these indicators as L1, L2 and L3. Now connect these lamps as I show in the second attachment 'ThreeLamps'. The leads go to the terminals at which you had disconnected a wire and the neutral.

You can now run the control panel and the lights will indicate power being supplied to the two valves or heater so that we can confirm the functionality of T1 and T2 as True Timed Delay off.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for the idea of testing with light bulbs and the link to a timer. I think only after testing can I confirm whether it is a True Off Delay or something different. There are a few other types that allow timing on power input such as Interval or Watchdog. Some with a trigger and some just with input:


And watchdog:


Because the machine does completely run and the sequence relies on other sensors such as clamp close. I think I'm best to skip the lightbulbs and use a multimeter. I have just ordered one. Can you please confirm if this test method will work:

Step 1
Plug multimeter common in. Then test input 2 and input 5 (one by one) while timer is off. There should be no power to either.

Step 2
Let the sequence run so the clamp is closed. This somehow uses input 5 to initiate, either a once off trigger or continuous. Plug multimeter into 2 and 5 (one by one) to see if there is continuous power or not during this state in both. My assumption is that there is continuous power to both.

Step 3
Let the sequence run past inject to clamp open. This is when the clamp Timer is actually using the timer delay. Plug the multimeter into 2 and 5 (one by one) to see if there is continuous power or not. I assume there isn't to 5 or the Timer wouldn't run in delay mode. And if there is power to 2 then it isn't a True Off Delay. Lastly, if there is no power to 2 then a True Off Delay timer is exactly the one!

With testing input 5 I will also be able to confirm whether it is a quick burst of power or continuous. I assume it is 240v which means if continuous I need a Power Trigger version of the timer as it will blow otherwise.

How does that sound? Thanks so much for clearing up a great testing approach for this Looks like I'm going to learn how to use a multimeter!

At the moment I am trying to simply replace the timers T1 and T2 with 11 pin equivalents and at worst only have to rejig the wiring to the 11 pin sockets. I will phone FOXTAM today and another company which sells their products.

If I cannot find an 11 pin true time delay off, then what we may have to do is use a more common delay off timer which requires a permanent power supply straight from the power input line and neutral and a trigger input derived from the supply to terminal 2.

As you say, it is clearly important to know the required timer functionality hence the care we are taking to establish that.

Please wear some rubber gloves such as washing up gloves and some eye protection when you use the multimeter on the live equipment and make sure it is set to the highest ac voltage and the leads go into the volts terminals on the meter. Some meters have a third terminal for measuring current.

As well as measuring between 2 and 5 to see if the timer is energised, also measure between 5 and 6 to see when there is a voltage to the valves. These numbers refer to the relay socket terminals. Please draw a timing diagram like the ones you have shown.

marconi said:

At the moment I am trying to simply replace the timers T1 and T2 with 11 pin equivalents and at worst only have to rejig the wiring to the 11 pin sockets. I will phone FOXTAM today and another company which sells their products.

If I cannot find an 11 pin true time delay off, then what we may have to do is use a more common delay off timer which requires a permanent power supply straight from the power input line and neutral and a trigger input derived from the supply to terminal 2.

As you say, it is clearly important to know the required timer functionality hence the care we are taking to establish that.

Please wear some rubber gloves such as washing up gloves and some eye protection when you use the multimeter on the live equipment and make sure it is set to the highest ac voltage and the leads go into the volts terminals on the meter. Some meters have a third terminal for measuring current.

As well as measuring between 2 and 5 to see if the timer is energised, also measure between 5 and 6 to see when there is a voltage to the valves. These numbers refer to the relay socket terminals. Please draw a timing diagram like the ones you have shown.

Click to expand...

I love the approach and a straight 11pin replacement would be amazing!

I'll let you know once my multimeter has arrived and I've had a chance to run the machine. Then I can playback what terminals are live when in the timing sequence. This will hopefully give us enough info to determine the Timer type. Happy to draw a diagram with terminal numbers and live status.

This may be 1-2 weeks as deliveries are scrappy here right now due to the pandemic...

marconi said:

Please draw a timing diagram like the ones you have shown.

Click to expand...

Hi Marconi

My new multimeter arrived and I have had a chance to check voltage in various states. I think this has given us valuable insights and I've added detailed diagrams below. Any help much appreciated

• Looks like we're dealing with a "power trigger" as I could see 230V continuously being supplied to T-5
• There appears to be an interruption where I've marked in yellow. Its like the first time it is powered up it runs continuously and then after interruption it then carries on with the time delay. I'm kind of assuming this interruption is on T-5 or both T-5 & T-2 but not sure.
• Interestingly on Manual Mode Inject the output is energised with just input to T-5
• In Auto Mode both timers start with power supplied to T-2 & T-5
• Interestingly on the Inject Timer, even though the output is de-energised after time delay is finished, power remains on the inputs until reset by the system.

I will study your useful diagrams tomorrow Tue 14 Mar 22.

I am getting closer to identifying the timers. Sorry for delay. I mentor/tutor someone which has kept me busy.

murd-the-nerd: I am finding it difficult to follow your wiring diagrams, particularly at the various switches and timer bases. Your recent power versus time diagrams help but I do not have sufficient information even with them to be confident about naming a suitable substitute for T1 and T2. The best I can say confidently is that for T1 and T2 the connections at the top of the base connect to what we call 'volt-free' contacts but these may be either NC or NO - I reckon they are NO.

Do you want to send me the timer(s) you wish to replace to study? You did say T1 and T2 are the same so why not send me just the black Kiwi one?

Regards

Marconi

Or you could connect those neon lamps I mentioned. Connect a neon across the 2 and 10 terminals to indicated when the relay is energised. Also connect a neon between relay output T6 and neutral to indicate when their relay contacts are closed/open. Finally a neon between T5;and neutral. Then label up the lamps and film the sequence. Post as an attachment For me to look at.

Hi Marconi

Sorry for the delay in my response. Seriously you have been a big help thank you! I am all the way in New Zealand so I think postage not really an option but thanks for the offer. To be honest I think we are really close. Yes T1 and T2 are the same, I have swapped and it still functions just fine.

I have tried to add switches to the diagram and fleshed out how important the Sensor is to the sequence. I haven't had a chance to use the Multimeter and validate this. But in practice (from me using the machine) this is how it works. I've colour coded the T1 and T2 so you can see the exact pin number that goes to the solenoid valves. This is becoming clearer each time I iterate

Heating ON and Auto Mode ON
To begin Auto sequence press Button LEFT & RIGHT at the same time. While held power is directed to T1 CLAMP and the Clamp Valve. Once the Sensor CLAMP is engaged you can depress the Buttons. Power is now directed to both T1 CLAMP and T2 INJECT via the Sensor. Once the timer runs out on T2 INJECT the Inject Valve is released. Once the timer runs out on T1 CLAMP the Clamp Valve is released. This trips the Sensor CLAMP and power is removed from both T1 CLAMP and T2 INJECT. The sequence is reset.



It actually seems that if I am happy to remove MANUAL mode a simple INTERVAL timer with the same pin config would work just fine:


At this stage what is confusing me the most is where the heck is the OUTPUT on these diagrams? This is an example of a power trigger but I see nothing out of pin 6... though in the non-power trigger version there appears to be... Maybe we are after a simple trigger version that allows voltage input to trigger?


Ohh and I am happy to open up the Timers and take pictures, but I'm not sure we'll learn anymore than what I have diagnosed with the multimeter.

I hope the new diagram makes better sense!

First response today. The switch outputs for the TR relays are the two sets of contacts 1, 4, 3 and 8,9, 11.

For the equipment’s relays T1 and T2 the switch output is 5,6 (and maybe 7).

The triggering for T1 and T2 is caused by the application of mains power across 2 and 10. When this happens the timer function of T1/T2 starts and results in the closing of the T1/T2 internal contacts connected between their 5 and 6 terminals. By applying mains Line to terminal 5 a device can be switched according to the timer function by connecting it to 6 and Neutral.

In summary for now 5, 6 on T1/T2 are not trigger inputs as they are for the TR series of relays you show function and terminal diagrams for.

If the timer function of T1/T2 is triggered by power applied to 2 and 10, then we could use one of the TR series and rejig the wiring to its base so that it performs just like a T2/T2. The switching - what you mean by output would done using one triplet 1, 4, 3 or 8, 9, 11 with a Line being connected to 3 or 11 and the load to 3 or 9 respectively.

What remains to be clarified is the timer function actually required so that the TR operates like the T1/T2. This is what we need to know next. I suggest the use of the neon lamps so the timer function can we watched. My earlier post refers.

Note well- as the panel is currently wired you cannot use any of the TR relays because your panel uses 5 and 6 as contacts to switch mains power whereas the TR relays uses them as input start timer function triggers.

Ahh so it appears the wiring on these is super weird having the relay output on 6! So far I haven't seen a single timer that has that. They always appear as gate, start, reset type functions. And from your notes above does that mean I wire the relay output (solenoid valve in my case) to 3 or 9 as highlighted below on a few timer variations. This timer does appear to accept power to 5 as well. Link here:



If you confirm above then I might finally understand these diagrams

Small typo corrected in:

'Note well- as the panel is currently wired you cannot use any of the TR relays because your panel uses 5 and 6 as contacts to switch mains power whereas the T1/T2 relays uses them as input start timer function triggers'.

murd_the_nerd said:

Ahh so it appears the wiring on these is super weird having the relay output on 6! So far I haven't seen a single timer that has that. They always appear as gate, start, reset type functions. And from your notes above does that mean I wire the relay output (solenoid valve in my case) to 3 or 9 as highlighted below on a few timer variations. This timer does appear to accept power to 5 as well. Link here:

8 & 11 PIN PLUG IN MULTI VOLTAGE, MULTI TIME RANGE, MULTI FUNCTION TIMERS - Foxtam Controls (en-GB)

8 & 11 pin plug in versions of our multi “everything” timers. Available in either 8 or 11 pin SPCO or as an 11 pin DPCO. A selector switch is provided to select eight different time ranges from 0.1 sec-10 days, fine time selection on a selected range is then achieved via a percentage potentiometer.

www.foxtamcontrols.co.uk

View attachment 96189

If you confirm above then I might finally understand these diagrams

Click to expand...

Yes - on the 11 pin there is a set of NO contacts between terminal 1 and the circled in yellow terminals which could be used to control power to the clamp and solenoid. Your application relies on power being applied to 2 and 10 to start the timing function which determines how/when these contacts close and open. As I said we can rewire the base to use these NO contacts.

Finding a suitable replacement relay is not the current main effort - that can be done easily. What we need to confirm is what timer function is required when power is applied to 2 and 10. eg: Interval, delay on........

Great, then I think we've done it pretty much!

Changes would be:

1. Change wiring as per 'After' diagram below if sticking with an 11pin timer
2. Use a timer that starts with power input to 2 and 10
3. Use an Interval type timer as my system continues power to input 2 past the timer ending (Interval was the only type I could see that lined up with this). I've updated the chart to represent what I'm seeing with the multimeter and ignoring 5. The flicker I eluded to before is likely the change from button power input to clamp sensor power input. And this is likely to not influence the timer as power still continuously supplied.
4. Don't mess with any gate or start inputs. You can see in the T1 Clamp wiring it is simply folding over power to both 5 and 2 at the same time. So there really is no need for it and all the modern timers I've found need a signal input, not continuous power to 5.

From my research this is actually far more common on 8pin timers. And they are about half the price. So there could be an argument to change the 11pin to an 8pin.







Example timing chart for Interval on an 8 pin:

I will study what you have said and then reply.