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1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves

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murd_the_nerd

murd_the_nerd

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Hi there

Complete novice electrical wise. I am refurbishing an old 1950s Injection Moulding machine and looking to replace the Power Timer Relays. So far with no success myself and two attempts. It appears I need some expert help. I would love direction on the type of timer I need and a link to where I could purchase is a bonus. Any help much appreciated. Details below:

The old Timers:
[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves


What I've investigated:
  • There are 2x Timers, one for inject and one for clamp
  • They are both the same, because I can swap them around and it still runs just fine
  • Markings still remaining on one says Supply 230 V AC and Rating 6A 230 V AC. There is no cut down in power on this machine, 240V throughout.
  • They appear to be short-circuit driven (not power on all the time and Start commands etc)
  • Power is only supplied when they run and is instantly straight through to the output
  • 11 pin circular configuration
  • Phase to pin 2, Neutral to pin 10
  • Power into pin 5 and 2 makes the output run forever until short-circuited. I think I've heard this called an Inhibit function which allows the Timer to pause and force power through pin 6. In the clamp instance this forces the clamp closed, lets the inject sequence run, and then allows the Timer to run before cutting power and releasing the clamp.
  • Pin 6 is the only output. This runs to the 5/2 solenoid valves and changes the valve position for either inject or clamp
  • Timer appears to be a Power Off Delay or similar as it only tells it when to cut power off

Diagrams that I've mapped to help explain how the Timers work and current wiring:
[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves


[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves


If you need any more info I'm happy to provide. And even if you are just interested in the machine I can post pictures of that also :)

Thanks
Murdoch
 
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Your after wiring diagram needs a wire from the relay base 11 to the connector block 4 as shown in my attachment.

If you buy a couple of power (230V ac) initiated interval timers you can replace T1 and T2. If you are not sure send me a link to the ones you intend to buy and I will check they are suitable. Obviously they need to have suitable interval time range. The contacts only carry the small current to operate clamp and inject actuators. Up to you whether to go for 8 pin, 11 pin or din rail ones. Happy to check a photo before you power on should you want me to.

Please keep me informed on progress and DO NOT WORK on live equipment.

🙂
note: For power initiated interval timer if applied power goes off then interval output ends at same time.
 

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Brilliant! I thought the timer power actually supplied the output power. How silly of me. But according to your diagram each Relay in the Timer can have its own power and the Timer simply switches the NC & NO contacts. So you could actually have a set up like this and mix voltages and all sorts:
[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves


This has helped me greatly as I completely missed I need to supply power to the contacts! Thanks so much :)

I will get on to ordering some Interval Timers that function with Power ON and report back how it goes
 
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And I'm thinking of going for something like this. The 8pins really are more geared to the Power On Interval style and the 11pin options are less common and expensive! The 8pin option below looks like it will do the job just fine :) One caution might be the 3A vs 6A on current Timers, is that something I should worry about? It is just supplying voltage to a solenoid valve, I can't imagine it drawing a huge amount of power.

Be thankful you don't live the next stop to Antarctica, things are hard to come by down here! The 8pin timer is in stock in Australia so quicker postage. I can get unbranded ones for $10-15 from aliexpress but figure I should get the real deal to be safe and postage can be up to a month.

AT8N
NZD$58

Spec sheet:
[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves

[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves



And the much more expensive 11pin option (and I'm sure others too):

TD-78121
NZD$216
www.galco.com

TD-78121

Multifunction Timer, 240VAC,
www.galco.com www.galco.com

[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves

[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves


Great to be at this stage of the process and purchasing new Timers :)
 
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The relay you have selected is suitable. Order AT8N . (Do not order AT8N1 or AT8N2 ).

One they have arrived we need to set up the timer range and timer mode for I = Interval operation.

You will require two 8 pin bases.

Study the connection diagram carefully for the AT8N so that you place the wires correctly to the 8 pin base.

The current switching capacity of this timer relay is satisfactory for your loads.

Also check by inspection and then with your meter on low ohms range that all items of the machine which are made of metal are indeed connected together and to the earth pin of the plug.
 
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Hi Marconi. I finally had a chance to wire in the new timers today :) I was in a bit of a rush and may have got the + & - the wrong way around. The heater wouldn't start so there is an issue. I either need to force the sequence change on the machine or the wiring is not letting it turn on. There is a relay in series with the two timers (- black wires) that allows the heater to start. I ran out of time to trouble fix.

I would appreciate if you could let me know whether switching the + & - between timer pins 2 and 7 would change anything? It seems just for DC it is wired the other way. Everything else appears fine at first glance...

New wiring:
[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves


New vs Old timers:
[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves


Timers and relay wiring new vs old:
[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves


Wiring diagram from the timer manual:
[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves
 
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With power off and referring to any pictures of the relay wiring before you swapped for new ones just check you have moved the red wires to the new bases so they act as relay power or output contacts as necessary.

What do the top left and right lights do?
 
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murd_the_nerd said:
Hi Marconi. I finally had a chance to wire in the new timers today :) I was in a bit of a rush and may have got the + & - the wrong way around. The heater wouldn't start so there is an issue. I either need to force the sequence change on the machine or the wiring is not letting it turn on. There is a relay in series with the two timers (- black wires) that allows the heater to start. I ran out of time to trouble fix.

I would appreciate if you could let me know whether switching the + & - between timer pins 2 and 7 would change anything? It seems just for DC it is wired the other way. Everything else appears fine at first glance...

New wiring:
View attachment 97046

New vs Old timers:
View attachment 97047

Timers and relay wiring new vs old:
View attachment 97048

Wiring diagram from the timer manual:
View attachment 97049
Click to expand...
It is only for dc supply you need to connect plus and minus as in the wiring diagram.
 
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Thread starter

murd_the_nerd

murd_the_nerd

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New Zealand
If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
New Zealand
What type of forum member are you?
Electrical Enthusiast (Unqualified Hobbyist etc)

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1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves
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