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HappyHippyDad

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Just looking for a bit of clarification regarding RCD's.

A type AC RCD is no longer acceptable for offering additional protection for socket outlets. If you are (for example) adding one socket to an existing circuit are you all updating the RCD to a type A? I can see this being a bit tricky sometimes. It's ok if its a brand of consumer unit that does type A RCD's but this will not always be the case.

Do the regulations mean that if you are extending an existing socket circuit you cannot use an existing type AC RCD?
 
I think it would depend on the circuit or circuits & what equipment the RCD is protecting. I guess changing it will cover further additions or changes of equipment that would need DC protection.
 
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Technically yes, it should be replaced, it's no different from before, if you needed to add an additional outlet or circuit, and the existing protection wasn't up to spec you would change the existing, or add something such as a rcd where there wasn't one previously.

It isn't something I quite agree with as there are always circumstances where this ups the price beyond what the customer is willing to pay.

For example, grandson finds granny fallen due to tripping over an extension lead (for the Xmas tree), so suggests adding a socket near the corner where the tree goes, - but, it needs rcd, none available for the existing cu etc - basically a single socket results in a new cu etc.

The end result is that nothing gets done to improve the situation, and granny goes back to using and tripping over extension leads!

I do sometimes think the distance we have to go in order to be compliant is a bit too far at times, I would much rather a half way there improvement to none at all - although of course we have to make sure this isn't abused
 
I think I may use a degree of common sense.

If I am able to change the existing type AC to a type A (fairly easily) I will factor this into the quote.

If it means a board change I may choose to give them that as an option rather than make it mandatory.
 
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You could always list it as a departure on the certificate. Not great but I think for a small job, the addition of a socket etc its okay, as long as you have offered the RCD change
I used to think the departures box was for this sort of use (ie get out of jail free). However, thanks to one @davesparks posts I realise this is not it's intended use.

The departures box is simply if you have done something that departs from BS7671, but (and this is the crucial bit) "The resulting degree of safety of the installation shall not be less than that obtained by compliance with the regulations" (120.3)

It would be less safe by using a type AC than a type A, so this isn't suitable for the departures box.
 
Same with all BS, if you depart from the content of the BS it must be to go "above and beyond" the requirements in that standard, this is quite clear from the HSE and has been tested in Court on a number of occasions.
 
If replacing the device in the CU isn’t viable then I suppose changing a point on the ring for an RCD spur for the addition is a possibility now they are back in the regs.
Of course, either/both may trip but no one can say the addition doesn’t comply with latest regs.
 
I used to think the departures box was for this sort of use (ie get out of jail free). However, thanks to one @davesparks posts I realise this is not it's intended use.

The departures box is simply if you have done something that departs from BS7671, but (and this is the crucial bit) "The resulting degree of safety of the installation shall not be less than that obtained by compliance with the regulations" (120.3)

It would be less safe by using a type AC than a type A, so this isn't suitable for the departures box.
Yes, I agree.
I was just thinking what could/would i do. This is going to be something we will all have to deal with over the next few years
 
I absolutely replace with A type RCBO. In fact you can't really get any other now. But aside from regs, if something can produce a safer installation then of course use it. I am a bit concerned that places like screwfix, b&q are selling dual rcd cu at pretty cheap prices. Recently I was asked to do a cu installation and the guy had bought two dual rcd which were the old AC type and I said he would have to take them back and get a refund as they don't meet regs now. I wonder how many have a go DIY are fitting these. And should such stores even be selling them. It does seem rather irresponsible of them to do so.
 
I think I may use a degree of common sense.

If I am able to change the existing type AC to a type A (fairly easily) I will factor this into the quote.

If it means a board change I may choose to give them that as an option rather than make it mandatory.
I'll be taking the same approach. It makes sense to install type A on new installations etc, but I don't feel that existing circuits protected by type AC are going to be a great deal safer by installing type A.
 
I absolutely replace with A type RCBO. In fact you can't really get any other now. But aside from regs, if something can produce a safer installation then of course use it. I am a bit concerned that places like screwfix, b&q are selling dual rcd cu at pretty cheap prices. Recently I was asked to do a cu installation and the guy had bought two dual rcd which were the old AC type and I said he would have to take them back and get a refund as they don't meet regs now. I wonder how many have a go DIY are fitting these. And should such stores even be selling them. It does seem rather irresponsible of them to do so.
I think amendment 1 will be withdrawn on 28th September, so AC still valid for the time being
 
NAPIT did a FAQ video, accessible from their installer portal (where you do the notifications) addressing this scenario, and their view is that if you're doing additions and alterations to a circuit, and where the new Regs would require a Type A RCD (i.e. unless it's a fixed load that could not leak DC under fault conditions) then a Type A RCD is required, i.e. if there is an existing Type AC RCD then this is not sufficient, and you need to do something about it.

A lot of my work involves minor works - additions and alterations to existing circuits.

A lot of the consumer units I come across were manufactuered by the likes of GET, Vytec, Steeple, GE, F&G, Contactum (the old ones with the brown MCB levers), MEM, CED, Legrand, "Plug-in-Systems", Tenby; or old Wylex/Crabtree boards with BS4293 RCDs and BS3871 MCBs. Chances of getting an RCBO or even a Type A RCCB to fit in those boards is pretty much nil (with the possible exception of the MEM RCBO pods). With a few notable exeptions, getting information from manufacturers about whether they approve the fitting of current (Type A RCBO/RCD) devices into older boards is like pulling teeth. Sometimes they're happy to talk to you on the phone, but they're rarely - if ever - willing to put anything in writing, and writen enquiries are ignored.

So if a new board is not wanted/economically unfeasible, then it's either a Type A RCD spur if it's lights, or I guess an external metal enclosure with a Type A RCCB if it's sockets (like doing minor works on a circuit off an old BS3036 fuse board).

It's a lot harder to explain to clients why it's necessary, too. When RCDs in general were introduced, and became required in more and more circumstances, it was easier to point out the difference in how an RCD will protect you where a fuse or circuit breaker won't. I suppose you could go along the lines of, "Well, it's not that the old RCDs are not safe any more, it's more that the things we plug into the circuits have changed," route, but then they point out that LED lights, and power supplies etc have been around for many years so why didn't they do this sooner, it feels a bit like the sort of uncomfortable conversation you'd have with someone in the 1990's who'd bought a garage with an asbestos roof a few years earlier.

One of the things that the CPSes could actually do that's useful is to collectively go round all the manufacturers of all the devices, and get written documentation about what is compatible with what. Their advice to "contact the manufacturer to confirm compatibility" is all very well but my own experience is enquiries go unanswered; and there must be so much duplicated waste of time when everyone's asking the same questions.
 
I haven't been able to download a copy of amendment 2 from piratebay yet, so I wouldn't know 😇
[ElectriciansForums.net] Are you replacing type AC RCD's with Type A?
 
Nothing to state they are precluded.
There is nothing stating type AC rcds do not meet 'the Regs'.
Agreed. As you know my head is filled with a lot of rubbish collected over the years and more recent study of the regs.
Every now and again a clear out is helpful. My musings….

531.3.3
Type AC RCDs shall only be used to serve fixed equipment where it is known the load contains no DC components.


For new installations that’s crystal clear.
For anything else, I don’t see it as any different to other reg changes we have previously navigated. We could be talking about extending domestic lighting circuits without RCD protection, SPDs or any number of things, the same two regs apply.

reg 132.16:

no addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, is made to an existing installation, unless:
  • the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, are adequate, for the altered circumstances, and;
  • the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, are adequate
reg 610.4: For an addition or alteration to an existing installation, it shall be verified that the addition or alteration complies with the regulations and does not impair the safety of the existing installation.
(My bold)

Whatever our personal feelings about Type A bring a lot more desirable I don’t see a justification in the regs for automatically upgrading Type AC if the addition or alteration can be achieved in a compliant and economical way without doing so.

We just need to look at what we’re doing. A new shower circuit could arguably added to a Type AC protected board couldn’t it?

I also don’t think Type A is specifically mentioned for impact protection, so don’t currently see why you can’t run a new cable to an RCD socket outlet.
 
Does the team think that these caveats are driven to be written that way due to manufactures pressure and so continue sales of on the shelf outdated equipment?

If installing new would you put in type AC or type A, not much of a quandary is it?
 
There is nothing stating type AC rcds do not meet 'the Regs'.
What would you do in this particular scenario though Westward?

You're installing a socket. The circuit has a Type AC RCD. Is this ok, or would you find some way (however expensive) to change to a Type A?

Caveat... You're not allowed to be awkward in any way 😉
 
Its an interesting debate and makes eicrs a judgement call, if house is empty with nothing in it then as you are testing as its found c3 but if occupied and full of dc devices do we c2 it? Napit go c2 niceic suggest c3
10 tears from now i expect every circuit will be on its own afdd. Possibly even radials for everything.
 
Its an interesting debate and makes eicrs a judgement call, if house is empty with nothing in it then as you are testing as its found c3 but if occupied and full of dc devices do we c2 it? Napit go c2 niceic suggest c3
10 tears from now i expect every circuit will be on its own afdd. Possibly even radials for everything.

The cost will bring most customers to tears. 🤣
 
What would you do in this particular scenario though Westward?

You're installing a socket. The circuit has a Type AC RCD. Is this ok, or would you find some way (however expensive) to change to a Type A?

Caveat... You're not allowed to be awkward in any way 😉
It is a good question and unless replacement rcd/rcbos are straight forward to fit then to strictly comply with the Regulations it going to be a whole lot of grief. Things like Hager boards should be straight forward albeit with additional costs but older styles of consumer units then as I said a whole load of grief.
 
A new shower circuit could arguably added to a Type AC protected board couldn’t it
I also don’t think Type A is specifically mentioned for impact protection, so don’t currently see why you can’t run a new cable to an RCD socket outlet.

The problem is that although the hazard that needs protecting against (cable penetration or water inside the shower) doesn't itself generate DC leakage, the RCD could be blinded by DC leakage from elsewhere, in which case it becomes unresponsive to any type of fault. If you are going to rely on an existing type AC, not only the new load but all existing loads need to be non-DC-leakers.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of installed type ACs are at this moment blinded by DC. I doubt it's very many.

On the general subject of frequent upgrades, here's the beginnings of an idea:
How about a mandatory information plate at the origin that shows what version of regs the installation complies with, in a simple way that is intelligible to the user. This would help distinguish an installation in good condition but lacking some recent safety developments, from one that is bang up to date with the latest regs. This might be simpler than trying to categorise obsolete and obsolescent features between C3 and C2 and users having to deduce the level of safety offered by the details within an EICR. Not unlike the emissions standards on vehicles, e.g. My little Euro-6 van is greener than the big one which is Euro-5, and I need look no further to know which can and cannot be driven freely within the ULEZ. I don't have to study the the MOT emissions test results.
 
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