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HappyHippyDad

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Just looking for a bit of clarification regarding RCD's.

A type AC RCD is no longer acceptable for offering additional protection for socket outlets. If you are (for example) adding one socket to an existing circuit are you all updating the RCD to a type A? I can see this being a bit tricky sometimes. It's ok if its a brand of consumer unit that does type A RCD's but this will not always be the case.

Do the regulations mean that if you are extending an existing socket circuit you cannot use an existing type AC RCD?
 
I haven't been able to download a copy of amendment 2 from piratebay yet, so I wouldn't know 😇
[ElectriciansForums.net] Are you replacing type AC RCD's with Type A?
 
Nothing to state they are precluded.
There is nothing stating type AC rcds do not meet 'the Regs'.
Agreed. As you know my head is filled with a lot of rubbish collected over the years and more recent study of the regs.
Every now and again a clear out is helpful. My musings….

531.3.3
Type AC RCDs shall only be used to serve fixed equipment where it is known the load contains no DC components.


For new installations that’s crystal clear.
For anything else, I don’t see it as any different to other reg changes we have previously navigated. We could be talking about extending domestic lighting circuits without RCD protection, SPDs or any number of things, the same two regs apply.

reg 132.16:

no addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, is made to an existing installation, unless:
  • the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, are adequate, for the altered circumstances, and;
  • the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, are adequate
reg 610.4: For an addition or alteration to an existing installation, it shall be verified that the addition or alteration complies with the regulations and does not impair the safety of the existing installation.
(My bold)

Whatever our personal feelings about Type A bring a lot more desirable I don’t see a justification in the regs for automatically upgrading Type AC if the addition or alteration can be achieved in a compliant and economical way without doing so.

We just need to look at what we’re doing. A new shower circuit could arguably added to a Type AC protected board couldn’t it?

I also don’t think Type A is specifically mentioned for impact protection, so don’t currently see why you can’t run a new cable to an RCD socket outlet.
 
Does the team think that these caveats are driven to be written that way due to manufactures pressure and so continue sales of on the shelf outdated equipment?

If installing new would you put in type AC or type A, not much of a quandary is it?
 
There is nothing stating type AC rcds do not meet 'the Regs'.
What would you do in this particular scenario though Westward?

You're installing a socket. The circuit has a Type AC RCD. Is this ok, or would you find some way (however expensive) to change to a Type A?

Caveat... You're not allowed to be awkward in any way 😉
 
Its an interesting debate and makes eicrs a judgement call, if house is empty with nothing in it then as you are testing as its found c3 but if occupied and full of dc devices do we c2 it? Napit go c2 niceic suggest c3
10 tears from now i expect every circuit will be on its own afdd. Possibly even radials for everything.
 
Its an interesting debate and makes eicrs a judgement call, if house is empty with nothing in it then as you are testing as its found c3 but if occupied and full of dc devices do we c2 it? Napit go c2 niceic suggest c3
10 tears from now i expect every circuit will be on its own afdd. Possibly even radials for everything.

The cost will bring most customers to tears. 🤣
 
What would you do in this particular scenario though Westward?

You're installing a socket. The circuit has a Type AC RCD. Is this ok, or would you find some way (however expensive) to change to a Type A?

Caveat... You're not allowed to be awkward in any way 😉
It is a good question and unless replacement rcd/rcbos are straight forward to fit then to strictly comply with the Regulations it going to be a whole lot of grief. Things like Hager boards should be straight forward albeit with additional costs but older styles of consumer units then as I said a whole load of grief.
 
A new shower circuit could arguably added to a Type AC protected board couldn’t it
I also don’t think Type A is specifically mentioned for impact protection, so don’t currently see why you can’t run a new cable to an RCD socket outlet.

The problem is that although the hazard that needs protecting against (cable penetration or water inside the shower) doesn't itself generate DC leakage, the RCD could be blinded by DC leakage from elsewhere, in which case it becomes unresponsive to any type of fault. If you are going to rely on an existing type AC, not only the new load but all existing loads need to be non-DC-leakers.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of installed type ACs are at this moment blinded by DC. I doubt it's very many.

On the general subject of frequent upgrades, here's the beginnings of an idea:
How about a mandatory information plate at the origin that shows what version of regs the installation complies with, in a simple way that is intelligible to the user. This would help distinguish an installation in good condition but lacking some recent safety developments, from one that is bang up to date with the latest regs. This might be simpler than trying to categorise obsolete and obsolescent features between C3 and C2 and users having to deduce the level of safety offered by the details within an EICR. Not unlike the emissions standards on vehicles, e.g. My little Euro-6 van is greener than the big one which is Euro-5, and I need look no further to know which can and cannot be driven freely within the ULEZ. I don't have to study the the MOT emissions test results.
 
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The problem is that although the hazard that needs protecting against (cable penetration or water inside the shower) doesn't itself generate DC leakage, the RCD could be blinded by DC leakage from elsewhere, in which case it becomes unresponsive to any type of fault. If you are going to rely on an existing type AC, not only the new load but all existing loads need to be non-DC-leakers.
So in a nutshell a non functional RCD due to existing leakage might as well not be there, and then the addition isn’t RCD protected.
To what extent can we rely on a type AC test with all loads on to detect this before we start? Or a DC clamp meter.

Maybe we just have to tell customers it’s getting impossible to comply with regs without changing the board.

We’ll be going around in circles otherwise - can’t extend a domestic lighting circuit that’s non the non RCD side, can’t move it to the other side without adding DC leakage from the LED downlights, so only options are find an RCBO, or new board.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of installed type ACs are at this moment blinded by DC. I doubt it's very many.
I’m sure you know already that the Robin loop testers used to rely on this characteristic for low current loop tests (saturating the coil with DC)
I believe that the later electronic RCDs and most RCBOs were immune to this behaviour which makes me think it will be older devices most affected.
How about a mandatory information plate at the origin that shows what version of regs the installation complies with
Bring it on….!
 
To what extent can we rely on a type AC test with all loads on to detect this before we start? Or a DC clamp meter.

Two competing influences there: generate as much DC leakage as you can to test whether it is being desensitised, but at the same time generate more AC leakage to move it closer to the trip threshold and invalidate the results of the test as proof of its sensitivity.

What I'd like to see is a heat map of typical DC leakage sources under non-fault conditions, other that known high-risk loads such as EV charging. Most functional leakage is capacitive and inherently AC, whether at line frequency or inverter frequency. Obviously if the leakage doesn't occur without a fault, simply energising the existing loads doesn't quantify the risk of an existing type AC being blinded.

Then under fault conditions, leakage from the rectified non-isolated bus of SMPSUs and inverters is clearly a possibility e.g. if they get wet or damaged, but how often does it actually happen? Are there identifiable hotspots, perhaps class I integrated LED fixtures with non-isolated LED chips, or VSDs used outdoors, with a disproportionate risk of leaking DC at levels of interest?

Here's another idea: Put a big capacitor in series with every type A RCD :) Some hairdryers won't then work on the low heat setting (which puts a diode in the mains lead) but that's a nasty trick anyway.

A diversionary side note:

Obviously we're used to the idea of rectifying the incoming AC mains to provide line-voltage DC within a device, and hence the idea that earth leakage from the rectified bus can be can be DC. What about deliberately drawing DC current from the AC mains by rectifying it asymmetrically? It was standard in the era of transformerless AC/DC valve radios and TVs, which took AC for the heaters but half-wave rectified the mains for the HT DC supply. But there were are talking about small loads, of arbitrary polarity, that cancelled out in bulk. In 60Hz countries, filament table lamps sometimes used a diode for a dim setting, as the resulting flicker of half the waveform being missing was less noticeable than with 50Hz. The hairdryer low setting is another.

In 1947, Strand Electric, the UK's premier manufacturer of theatre lighting equipment, tried to move forward from electromechanical dimmers to electronic ones using thyratrons. This had already been done by George Izenour in the US but the Strand guys, chiefly James Wood, came up with an idea to make the thyratrons easier to drive and the light flicker-free. Instead of a single-phase bridge, each lamp circuit was driven with a 3-phase, 3-pulse, controlled rectifier, passing moderately smooth DC through the lamp. Unfortunately being only half-wave meant the the mains supply current was pulsating DC also, and that that neutral current was the sum of the line currents, not the difference. Unlike a town full of radios and TVs this was a single point load of hundreds of kW pumping the full load current as DC into the neutral. I am not sure how they managed to overlook this during design and testing but the first installation cooked its supply cables and the concept was soon discontinued.
 
Two competing influences there: generate as much DC leakage as you can to test whether it is being desensitised, but at the same time generate more AC leakage to move it closer to the trip threshold and invalidate the results of the test as proof of its sensitivity
I’ll have to try giving type AC devices a hammering using a Type A ramp test. If they still trip with reasonable AC fault current plus 6ma DC then arguably they are as effective as the device we are being encouraged to replace them with!
It would be rather fun to prove that and write it up as a departure then show it to a Napit assessor…
 
Question, based on this scenario:

A Type AC RCD protects 5 circuits (maybe one of 2 RCDs in an old board). From one of the circuit breakers, you add an external Type A RCD. So the circuit that has the extra Type A RCD on it, if there is DC upto 6mA downstream of this extra RCD, it (the Type A RCD) will still trip in the event of a fault. So far, so good.

My question is, could the upstream Type AC RCD (which protects 4 other circuits) be blinded and rendered ineffectual by something on the circuit which is also protected by the Type A RCD?
 
Question, based on this scenario:

A Type AC RCD protects 5 circuits (maybe one of 2 RCDs in an old board). From one of the circuit breakers, you add an external Type A RCD. So the circuit that has the extra Type A RCD on it, if there is DC upto 6mA downstream of this extra RCD, it (the Type A RCD) will still trip in the event of a fault. So far, so good.

My question is, could the upstream Type AC RCD (which protects 4 other circuits) be blinded and rendered ineffectual by something on the circuit which is also protected by the Type A RCD?
Yes
 

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