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Do these internally exposed meter tails require mechanical protection?

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Discuss Do these internally exposed meter tails require mechanical protection? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

drewzh

drewzh

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Hi,

I was hoping someone with a little more insight might be able to shed some light on a potential issue I have, as I can't seem to find another example online where this specific question that has been answered.

What you can see in the attached photograph is meter tails (single insulated + sheathed), coming in to supply an EV distribution board. It seems from research that most installations are buried with additional conduits for protection, so I'm not sure what the specific rules are around clipped-direct meter tails.

The regs are a little hazy, but should these tails, being situated in a garage workshop, in close proximity to daily tool usage and storage, have further mechanical protection, in the form of metal conduit, or is this perfectly reasonable for a new install?

Many thanks in advance,
Drew
[ElectriciansForums.net] Do these internally exposed meter tails require mechanical protection?
 
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Insulated and sheathed cables are permissible for surface clipped, but if there is possibility of damage then should be further mechanically protected.

Being a new install, did they know what the room was going to be used for or did they assume “domestic” environment?


I don’t see an image, but might not yet have downloaded for me yet on 4G
 
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littlespark said:
Insulated and sheathed cables are permissible for surface clipped, but if there is possibility of damage then should be further mechanically protected.

Being a new install, did they know what the room was going to be used for or did they assume “domestic” environment?


I don’t see an image, but might not yet have downloaded for me yet on 4G
Click to expand...

Thanks. The garage is used for DIY work - working on cars, general wood-work and laser cutting etc. I use the tool chest surface for power tools (i.e, chop saw, grinders etc).

I don't want to appear to be awkward, but it just seemed a little 'in my face' to have, barring a 100A fuse, unprotected tails in front of me all the time, just to the back of the actual surface where I do most of my small jobs.

I did raise it with the guy at the time and unfortunately, he just dismissed my concern and said "this is how we always do it - I don't even carry conduit", so it was a bit of an awkward situation and as the job was almost done, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to proceed.

Think the image not loading is on your end as I tried another (not logged in) device and it's loading fine.

I've included another image below for what it looks like usually (usually a lot more messy!).

I guess the next question would be... the best way to protect them?

Cheers

[ElectriciansForums.net] Do these internally exposed meter tails require mechanical protection?
 
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Do they have a BS number printed on them?
are you sure they are not single insulated?
 
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drewzh said:
That was my secondary suggestion to him, but again he shrugged it off as unnecessary and the conversation died there. My thought at the time was, 'unnecessary' maybe, but 'prudent', definitely.
Click to expand...
Trouble is not everyone has standards , to me a fivers worth of black copex would have finished the job off nice, rather than just having the singles cleated like that...
 
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James said:
Do they have a BS number printed on them?
are you sure they are not single insulated?
Click to expand...
No obvious markings (either inside or in the meter cabinet) on any of the tails, other than what's in the following images (00462 ?)...

Does the outer diameter give any clues as to whether these are single or double (single/sheathes that is)? I do think either way, I'd have expected it to have been brought into the box either from behind or in some sort of conduit. Not just for looks, but for safety given that it's a well-used part of the house.

[ElectriciansForums.net] Do these internally exposed meter tails require mechanical protection?

[ElectriciansForums.net] Do these internally exposed meter tails require mechanical protection?
 
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Dustydazzler said:
Trouble is not everyone has standards , to me a fivers worth of black copex would have finished the job off nice, rather than just having the singles cleated like that...
Click to expand...
That's what struck me initially, as I personally have pride in my own work and tend to like things to look neat - it looks a bit of a mess. I did actually use the phrase "dogs dinner", which I don't think he appreciated 😂
 
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My end with the image… it appeared later on.

Not very often to see core colours on the outer sheath…. Usually grey with the colour on the inner insulation.

Where are these tails going? Might have been more suitable to use armoured cable, as there’s smaller armoured cables coming out.

The “00462” I think is the metre marking from where the cable was taken off a much bigger drum. You might find “00463” a metre away.


As for protection now, a simple wooden box to cover it and the other cables would be enough…. But there’s a double socket in the way.
 
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It looks as though they are double insulated flexi tails, hence the colour.

Meter tails or other insulated and sheathed cables, the basic insulation over the conductor and the non-metallic sheath are deemed to comply with the requirements for both basic and fault protection in Regulation 412.2 and hence don’t need to be installed in containment (unless required for mechanical protection). What this also means is that removal of the outer sheath to enable the colour of the core to be identified outside of a wiring accessory (e.g. a meter or service block) should not be done, as the cable will have been reduced to having basic insulation only.

I would be looking at if the tails run through the fabric of the building as to whether it needs some protection.
 
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drewzh said:
No obvious markings (either inside or in the meter cabinet) on any of the tails, other than what's in the following images (00462 ?)...

Does the outer diameter give any clues as to whether these are single or double (single/sheathes that is)? I do think either way, I'd have expected it to have been brought into the box either from behind or in some sort of conduit. Not just for looks, but for safety given that it's a well-used part of the house.

View attachment 109160
View attachment 109159
Click to expand...
25 mm² flexitails are 11 mm diameter, 16 mm² standard tails are 9.1 mm in diameter. Although there is going to be some variation in those numbers due to manufactures.
 
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In my opinion there's nowt wrong with the job. It doesn't look rough at all despite what others may think. Sure copex woulda looked better but there's nothing wrong with the install. Regs say they have to be clipped unless they're in containment and they are.

If this was installed under the stairs nobody would bat an eye. So....imo your bench is in the wrong place! ;)

I would simply box round them if you're scared of nicking them with something. Bit of ply or something.
 
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rewireIT said:
In my opinion there's nowt wrong with the job. It doesn't look rough at all despite what others may think. Sure copex woulda looked better but there's nothing wrong with the install. Regs say they have to be clipped unless they're in containment and they are.

If this was installed under the stairs nobody would bat an eye. So....imo your bench is in the wrong place! ;)

I would simply box round them if you're scared of nicking them with something. Bit of ply or something.
Click to expand...

It's terrible, I would be ashamed to put my name to that.
 
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mainline said:
It's terrible, I would be ashamed to put my name to that.
Click to expand...
If we ignore the fact that they're coming through the wall, the only thing wrong with it is the cleats don't line up with each other. What else is wrong with it?

Boards are level, cables are cleated, glands are all done properly. It's not exactly been lashed in.
 
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rewireIT said:
If we ignore the fact that they're coming through the wall, the only thing wrong with it is the cleats don't line up with each other. What else is wrong with it?

Boards are level, cables are cleated, glands are all done properly.
Click to expand...
I didn't say it wasn't compliant, as that's an unknown, not knowing the run of those tails or how they are connected.

That install looks as though there was no planning or pride in their work.
 
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It looks much better than a lot I see and I agree that boxing it in is a good idea. I suppose it comes down to what was asked for on whether they have provided the correct thing.

The other cable is also not armoured judging by the stuffing gland.
 
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If it was me, I'd give up any hope that the installing electrician could or would make it any better, and tidy it up myself - boxing in all the cables and moving the twin socket to the right and (if you plan to continue using the toolbox as a bench!) up a bit, and put the socket into the front of the boxing in!
At least it will then be accessible with the toolbox in place!
 
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Avo Mk8 said:
and (if you plan to continue using the toolbox as a bench!) up a bit,
Click to expand...
That was actually the thing bothering me more than anything else, nothing worse than a socket you can't easily use!
If it's just a spur from the board then a surface mount metal clad with coupler would be an easy addition to the bottom of the board, and be a bit heavier duty for workshop use.
 
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It should be remembered that the OP's question pertains to new works, the extent of which I believe to be the additional board, tails and outgoing (what appears to be) tuff-sheath cable. Unless I've missed something, the main board, armoured cable and 2g socket were pre-existing.

Cleating on new cables could be neater, but that's not an issue raised by the OP. While tuff-sheath is certainly tougher than sheathed and insulated tails, it offers little in the way of cut resistance. Yes it will be RCD protected, but I don't think it should be overlooked if damage by power tools is the main concern.

The socket could be better placed, but OP hasn't expressed any concerns about its position and it doesn't appear to be part of the recent works.

What I do find strange is where the tails come trough - perhaps this was the extent of a permali box on the other side, perhaps it was a case of point and drill or perhaps there are other reasons unknown to us. Regardless, it's not an issue in terms of OP's concernsand nor is it from a regulatory perspective.

OP mentions that they raised the issue of potential damage when the job was near completion. The installer could certainly have taken the time to protect the tails in some way, but was it feasible to do so at the time? Was there a nearby wholesaler open and could the job have still been completed on the same day? Was the additional taime required to strip the board, protect tails and re-dress chargeable? I'm not casting aspertions at either the OP or the installer, but simply highlighting a few (of many) considerations that are easy to overlook when levelling criticism from afar.
 
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