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My Panel

Discuss My Panel in the Commercial Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net

vaughant said:
...only the laziest sparks will wire them up without.
If you get access to German schematics they generally use a good system,worth learning and copying!!!
Click to expand...

I don't class Germans as lazy sparks yet they do a good wiring system using contact numbers rather than wire IDs. They have spot-on schematics to supplement this type of wiring method.

As you've said...I've seen many-a-panel with no markers nor schematics. It's a character-building task when faultfinding them ones.
 
silva.foxx said:
I don't class Germans as lazy sparks yet they do a good wiring system using contact numbers rather than wire IDs. They have spot-on schematics to supplement this type of wiring method.

As you've said...I've seen many-a-panel with no markers nor schematics. It's a character-building task when faultfinding them ones.
Click to expand...

Well i for one am not a fan of German schematics, which mostly come in multiple sheets or A4 book form for even relatively small control panels. There schematics tend to send you all over the place, ...your forever flicking through different pages. Very difficult at times to get an overall view of what your working on. Much prefer the older UK system, which is basically what the Yanks still use. ...But then that's what i was trained using. lol!!!
 
Engineer54 said:
Well i for one am not a fan of German schematics, which mostly come in multiple sheets or A4 book form for even relatively small control panels. There schematics tend to send you all over the place, ...your forever flicking through different pages. Very difficult at times to get an overall view of what your working on.
Click to expand...

Same here, although I don't have a lot of options when half of our machines are sourced through the German headquarters! A good example a few months ago when a safety relay was changed, it had 12-15 brown unmarked wires into top and the same on bottom, the guy was lucky he only got one wrong, still took me a while to sort as I had to disconnect and trace wires jumping all over the drawings!
 
Ashley Williams said:
I wanted to use trunking but was told i wasnt allowed and in all honesty there was little room for it as i did not order the enclosure most of the components where pre ordered by my boss while i was on holiday as he knew what i would need roughly! I would of preffered a slightly larger enclosure
Click to expand...

I know the feeling when some one else orders the enclosure, in my case the engineer who designed the machine just left a space at the bottom hoping it would do!

It was tight....

[ElectriciansForums.net] My Panel
 
Engineer54 said:
I see that your company don't use panel wiring trunking (slotted/finger) in there panels!! Which is a shame, It makes internal panel wiring so much neater, and gives a professional finish to the job....
Click to expand...
Ditto shame no slotted trunking but very nice anyway and I've seen a lot worse
 
Yes think everyone covered the points so a good several areas to address but having said that your achillies heel here is the boss, cutting corners like he does as you have suggested, if you have designed and built several panels before as you suggest then i would expect you to have a stock supply of numbering kits, slotted trunking etc with only the contactors, relays etc to order to spec'.
I would in your shoes be looking into joining a company who build control panels as a main part of their income, this way you wont pick up the bad habits that your boss is cornering you into doing.... its not a criticism but constructive, or at the very least have a sit down with the boss and explain he needs to budget in for the above points.

[ElectriciansForums.net] My PanelThis one i did shows the trunking and numbering you require although before others point out it lacks venting and E-stop but on clients request as its to be stripped in Switzerland and fitted into a larger control panel, i just rigged this up for a on-site temp' rig to show the clients the machine running before we exported it.
 
Remember though if you ate building a machine to be used in a business undertaking, then this is legally putting the machine onto the market, thus it must comply with any and all regulations that apply to bought in machines.
I doubt that this panel would tbh, and not the apprentices fault really.
However the law still applies, and it's panel does not meet the requirements of the statute law, or harmonised standards for compliance with the relevant new approach directives.
 
netblindpaul said:
Remember though if you ate building a machine to be used in a business undertaking, then this is legally putting the machine onto the market, thus it must comply with any and all regulations that apply to bought in machines.
I doubt that this panel would tbh, and not the apprentices fault really.
However the law still applies, and it's panel does not meet the requirements of the statute law, or harmonised standards for compliance with the relevant new approach directives.
Click to expand...

That's why I suggested a seminar from some one like Pilz, when I went they gave all the neccessary info regarding directives, BS/EN etc.
 
OK answering a few of these...

The supply to the power supply was changed i was waiting for the brown to come in to stock it was due in the next morning i just put it in to test the panel out.

The Black 400ac supply to the contactor etc I labelled cruidly using a dymo labeller with L1, L2 and L3 around them. I wasnt allowed brown and grey.

As for the 24v wiring i am not familair with the suitable colours for 24v dc I will read up on this i promise but yes in hign site it could be much better i will take this into account if i ever make a panel again.

The PSU is 10A.

I suggested a small PLC but it was rejected by the powers that be.

I have spot on schematics. I have checked them three times but they are in the machine now not with me.

As for risk assesment in all honesty i dont know the extent the checks etc.

Today i had to make some modifications to an exsisting panel by removing the DOL forward and reverse starter and replacing it with a VSD i caused a bit of a fuss when i went and bought a numbering kit on account from the wholesalers. But i refused to do it any other way. I kept the same colour wiring as the exsisting panel. I kept the 400ac supply and the supply to the motor the same numbers and suitably numbered the control wires. The machine is not back in service yet. the only problem i have is no professional way of updating the wiring diagram. But to the show part of the struggle i am up against my boss came along and said oh ive soldered some wires on the potentiometer for you he mounted it in the front half of the panel while im working in the rear he then goes can you see the wires poking through to find he was soldered a bit of old three core 1mm flex on to it that he had cut off an old work lamp. I honestly couldnt believe it. I waited for him to go and i removed it resolding on some 0.5mm tri rated insulating the terminals with heat shrink.

If i cause to much of a fuss about things i get taken off jobs and put on greasing duty's etc which means i learn nothing...

I am glad of my job and i do like many aspects of it im in a situation where i completed C+G 2330 full time course at college and only 3 out of 23 got jobs. and one of them is working for a compressor repair company doing more pipe work than anything. So i see myself as fortunate as ive got a little experiance under my belt. I am always open to advice an will always question something if i dont think its right.

Thank you everyone for your advice and the people who has posted pictures up of there panels i like them i hope one day i will have the knowledge to build a panel to that standard.

Ash

silva.foxx said:
Firstly, thanks for showing your work.
Secondly, holes are rightfully being blown into this example!

You have stated you are not a panel building company... who has verified your circuit design in relation to the Press risk assessment?

Presses... are they covered by special regulations?

Your 400vac (assumed as no signs) feed wiring is in black... your +24vdc is in black... your switched neutral is in blue... your PSU supply (230vac) is in blue... your -24vdc is in blue... You say you want to raise standards... DO IT BY ADHERING TO CURRENT STANDARDS.

Is it an earthed ELV control circuit?

Your lack of wire numbers may be omitted assuming your schematics are spot-on! I take it you have schematics... if so are they computer drafted?

What are you powering with that PSU? It's huge. What is it rated at? 10 or 20A?

These days anything over four relays should be replaced with a programmable logic block or smart relay... thats not to say it must be.

Safety relay? To what safety category have you installed to? Are external monitoring contacts used as part of resetting the light barrier?

What tells you that the motor DOL has tripped? If it alerts the operator then it prevents him fiddling when he can't start the m/c.

Are we to assume all your field wiring leaves from the top of the panel?

I'm not keen on your control wiring passing so close over the supply of the isolator.


Your last sentence... they should not be left wanting!


Please show a photo of your schematics.

regards
s.f
Click to expand...
 
And i am very interested in a PILZ seminar i had a brief look on there website but couldnt see much i will look tomorrow when im not so tired.

Ash
 
With regards to the VSD you installed- make sure you follow the the earthing arrangements as per manufacturers instructions! .... the earthing system and filtering of these devices is crucial and can create all sorts of issues if done incorrectly.... i can relate and understand your situe' here but you really should be taking relevent courses in panel/control systems long before even attempting what your doing, your knowledge is crude at most (no offense meant) thus you have the functional know-how of the parts you install but lack the knowledge of Regulations, Earthing and filtering arrangements to prevent RF interference and dampen harmonics, Risk assessment, ....etc etc sorry but this list goes on.
You are really creating a deep hole for yourself here and although you explain you would be put on a crappy job instead it should really be an issue of not been ready yet and putting up with the crappy alternative jobs until you have trained up to do panel building. Its clear those above you are clueless thus you have no proffesional guide which leaves you wide open to bad habits and practices well behind what are required.
To sum it up... if a machine breakdown or worse a users receives an injury or is killed then the few minor issues we brought up will be the least of your worries as we cant truely scrutinise it any deeper without at the very least seeing schematics, this is a press and usually carry quite an high Risk category and thus have to be designed very carefully with fail safe in mind and all aspects of user risk.

My previous comments were regarding what you initially asked about your control panel... but through reply and response ive got a deeper understanding of what your trying to achieve here hence ive posted a bit harsher but hope you understand why, alot of good points have been pointed out by others and puting it all in context you should now be seeing the depth of water you are in, although this is a great side of electrics to get into - try not to jump in the deep end before you can swim.
 
You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.
All a.c. power wiring should be black, with identification numbering.
All a.c. control wiring, regardless of voltage should be red, with identification numbering.
All d.c. control wiring should be blue, regardless of polarity or voltage, with identification numbering.
Don't have 60204 to hand, I'll "try" to remember to dig the table number out.
Also please remember that if you are designing equipment, you must have copies of the relevant standards and legislation to refer to at all times.
There is over £2k to start with.
If you don't have them and there is an issue then you will have been deemed non compliant, as you cannot design and build to a standard that you don't have.
This is why the scams insist on a copy of 7671 for their members.
 
big show said:
Now hang on I wasn't having a go just saying the only thing to stick out obvious was the panel trunking otherwise it's a nice job
Click to expand...

I know you wasn't having a go, which was why i posted my comment. If you have read the comments posted by those that have far more extensive experience in panel fabrication than either of us, it's plainly obvious that it's not a nice job. ...And i'm not laying any blame on the OP, as he should be conducting any work undertaken with suitable supervision....
 
netblindpaul said:
You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.

From 60204
13.2.4 Identification by colour
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors (other than the protective
conductor (see 13.2.2) and the neutral conductor (see 13.2.3)), the following colours may be
used:
BLACK, BROWN, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE (including LIGHT BLUE),
VIOLET, GREY, WHITE, PINK, TURQUOISE.
NOTE This list of colours is derived from IEC 60757.
Click to expand...
 
ACDC said:
netblindpaul said:
You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.

From 60204
13.2.4 Identification by colour
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors (other than the protective
conductor (see 13.2.2) and the neutral conductor (see 13.2.3)), the following colours may be
used:
BLACK, BROWN, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE (including LIGHT BLUE),
VIOLET, GREY, WHITE, PINK, TURQUOISE.
NOTE This list of colours is derived from IEC 60757.
Click to expand...


I was thinking more about this section!
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors, it is recommended that they be
colour-coded as follows:
– BLACK: a.c. and d.c. power circuits;
– RED: a.c. control circuits;
– BLUE: d.c. control circuits;
– ORANGE: excepted circuits in accordance with 5.3.5.
Exceptions: to the above are permitted where:
– insulation is used that is not available in the colours recommended; or
– multiconductor cable is used, but not the bicolour combination GREEN-AND-YELLOW.
Click to expand...
 
Orange is usually things like panel lighting etc,stuff fed from the other side of the isolator and hence live even when the isolators disconnected.
They use orange wire where I am now in plc controlled contractors to show it could be energised from elsewhere.
 
i remenber doing some panels for submarines and the cables were all pink,cant remember the type of cable but it was the worst cable to handle,loom and strip,ds might be able to shed some light on the name of it tho
 
silva.foxx said:
I don't class Germans as lazy sparks yet they do a good wiring system using contact numbers rather than wire IDs. They have spot-on schematics to supplement this type of wiring method.

As you've said...I've seen many-a-panel with no markers nor schematics. It's a character-building task when faultfinding them ones.
Click to expand...


Sorry if it came across that way,I meant that people who DON'T follow the German system yet also don't mark cables up are the laziest most selfish sparks about.
Ive seen tons of it where I am,even on brand new installs. I've questioned the lack of diagrams,support and general appalling attitude to the vitality of diagrams where I am and had the answer from my department head of "we've run like this since 1700 and something".
...hence I went for a job interview on thursday,elsewhere of course!!!
 
netblindpaul said:
You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.
All a.c. power wiring should be black, with identification numbering.
All a.c. control wiring, regardless of voltage should be red, with identification numbering.
All d.c. control wiring should be blue, regardless of polarity or voltage, with identification numbering.
Don't have 60204 to hand, I'll "try" to remember to dig the table number out.
Also please remember that if you are designing equipment, you must have copies of the relevant standards and legislation to refer to at all times.
There is over £2k to start with.
If you don't have them and there is an issue then you will have been deemed non compliant, as you cannot design and build to a standard that you don't have.
This is why the scams insist on a copy of 7671 for their members.
Click to expand...

I know and appreiciate that your a stickler fior the rules paul, and for good reason, but regarding the black cable for all of the phases, it is not something i would use.
Ive had the misfortune of working on an american panel (for a water atomiser), and that was wired in black cables with numbers. It was a pain. If i has to modify that panel slightly, and a number fell off 2 cables at the asme time, then its a pain to identify. I

m guessing that the standard you refer to is a Cenelec or IEC standard, and uses the colour black for more political reasons (ie harmonisation). In my perosinal opionion, if a panel is to be built for the UK, the the UK phase colours should be used. If its to be built for export to unkown then maybe stick with the black with numbers.
I work for a subcontractor of a large water company, and all of this water companies panels (well the ones i have seen), use UK phase colours.
I cannot see a court ect ever deciding that you are wrong for using widely recognised colours.

I cannot see an
 
Well if you use phase colours then the panel cannot be CE marked as it will not comply with the requirements of the LVD as it will not comply with the recognised standards that are put in place to ensure compliance.
If you can't handle wire numbers correctly then stay out of panels is another answer ;)
You may find that a court will find you guilty, and if I were the expert witness you met, then I would be trying to send you down end of story.
 

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