14-50R ground/neutral question

[Cjt00000]

Question: Do I tie both the ground and neutral to the same bar in the panel (on the right in the photo)?

Explanation: I am installing an outdoor 14-50R receptacle to power a travel trailer on my property. The previous owners had one installed but the receptacle and UF wire was removed by the previous owners or stolen while the home was vacant.

Im using 6/3 UF wire for the run. The trouble I'm having is where to tie the neutral into the breaker panel. There is no neutral bar in the box (as far as I know). The 200 amp breaker panel is directly below the meter and still has the 50 amp breaker in place. I have included a photo of the box.

Disclaimer: Yes, I can see the panel is a mess, the unattached exposed wires are not hot and I will remove them when I have the time. I know to shut off the main breaker when removing the panel cover. I have a fair understanding of electricity and the consequences of being reckless, unfortunately I just do not have the money to have an electrician do the install. My grandfather lives with us and is a retired industrial electrician and has told me his opinion but his mind has been deteriorating and I can't trust his advice.

 

[buzzlightyear]

their you go ,ten million words .

 

[Cjt00000]

Thanks

 

[Megawatt]

Thank you. I do not find the diagram helpful or informative. I will find the solution elsewhere.

CJ is this panel outside w

Question: Do I tie both the ground and neutral to the same bar in the panel (on the right in the photo)?

Explanation: I am installing an outdoor 14-50R receptacle to power a travel trailer on my property. The previous owners had one installed but the receptacle and UF wire was removed by the previous owners or stolen while the home was vacant.

Im using 6/3 UF wire for the run. The trouble I'm having is where to tie the neutral into the breaker panel. There is no neutral bar in the box (as far as I know). The 200 amp breaker panel is directly below the meter and still has the 50 amp breaker in place. I have included a photo of the box.

Disclaimer: Yes, I can see the panel is a mess, the unattached exposed wires are not hot and I will remove them when I have the time. I know to shut off the main breaker when removing the panel cover. I have a fair understanding of electricity and the consequences of being reckless, unfortunately I just do not have the money to have an electrician do the install. My grandfather lives with us and is a retired industrial electrician and has told me his opinion but his mind has been deteriorating and I can't trust his advice.

View attachment 52025

CJ is this panel outside with or beside the meter ?
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View attachment 52027their you go ,ten million words .

Another good schematics by Buzz
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Thanks

CJ The NEC states that the first disconnect after a transformer which is your panel you have to bond the panel to the neutral bar so you can hook up both your neutral and your equipment ground any panel is sub-fed from that panel then you have to isolate your grounded conductors and your grounding conductor ALLWAYS DISCONNECT ALL POWER ( turn main 200) I seen you had the turned off the main to take the cover off and that’s the best advice I can give you

 

[davesparks]

I start with the disclaimer that I am a UK electrician and my knowledge of USA wiring practice is very basic.

However it appears to me that something isn't quite right here, normally the white conductor is the neutral in the USA however they are connected to breakers here. It doesn't look like the breakers are connected to the neutral bar to work double pole so I assume they are following the normal US arrangement of being connected to the two lives.
So my suspicion is that cable intended to carry live, neutral and ground has been used to carry two lives and the ground is being used for both neutral and ground.

As far as I understand it this is not allowed.

 

[Megawatt]

I start with the disclaimer that I am a UK electrician and my knowledge of USA wiring practice is very basic.

However it appears to me that something isn't quite right here, normally the white conductor is the neutral in the USA however they are connected to breakers here. It doesn't look like the breakers are connected to the neutral bar to work double pole so I assume they are following the normal US arrangement of being connected to the two lives.
So my suspicion is that cable intended to carry live, neutral and ground has been used to carry two lives and the ground is being used for both neutral and ground.

As far as I understand it this is not allowed.

Dave all neutrals connect to the neutral bar in the panel the only neutrals that connect to single pole breakers and double pole breakers are GFCI breakers which the neutral connects to the breakers then the breakers have a what I call a pig tail that connects to the neutral bar. If you are referring to my previous statement about the neutrals and grounding conductors connected to the same bar. That is only done at the first disconnect after the transformer but if you subfeed any panels out of the first panel you have to separate the grounding conductors from the neutrals conductors
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Dave all neutrals connect to the neutral bar in the panel the only neutrals that connect to single pole breakers and double pole breakers are GFCI breakers which the neutral connects to the breakers then the breakers have a what I call a pig tail that connects to the neutral bar. If you are referring to my previous statement about the neutrals and grounding conductors connected to the same bar. That is only done at the first disconnect after the transformer but if you subfeed any panels out of the first panel you have to separate the grounding conductors from the neutrals conductors

Dave if we have a piece of equipment that requires a neutral we generally pull a 3 wire cable a with ground. They are times when we have 240vac piece of equipment that don’t require a neutral we can pull a two wire cable with ground and the white can carry lives as long they are phase taped on both ends so there won’t be any confusion
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Dave all neutrals connect to the neutral bar in the panel the only neutrals that connect to single pole breakers and double pole breakers are GFCI breakers which the neutral connects to the breakers then the breakers have a what I call a pig tail that connects to the neutral bar. If you are referring to my previous statement about the neutrals and grounding conductors connected to the same bar. That is only done at the first disconnect after the transformer but if you subfeed any panels out of the first panel you have to separate the grounding conductors from the neutrals conductors
[automerge]1568069669[/automerge]

Dave if we have a piece of equipment that requires a neutral we generally pull a 3 wire cable a with ground. They are times when we have 240vac piece of equipment that don’t require a neutral we can pull a two wire cable with ground and the white can carry lives as long they are phase taped on both ends so there won’t be any confusion

I would never allow 1 wire to serve 2 purpose
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Dave all neutrals connect to the neutral bar in the panel the only neutrals that connect to single pole breakers and double pole breakers are GFCI breakers which the neutral connects to the breakers then the breakers have a what I call a pig tail that connects to the neutral bar. If you are referring to my previous statement about the neutrals and grounding conductors connected to the same bar. That is only done at the first disconnect after the transformer but if you subfeed any panels out of the first panel you have to separate the grounding conductors from the neutrals conductors
[automerge]1568069669[/automerge]

Dave if we have a piece of equipment that requires a neutral we generally pull a 3 wire cable a with ground. They are times when we have 240vac piece of equipment that don’t require a neutral we can pull a two wire cable with ground and the white can carry lives as long they are phase taped on both ends so there won’t be any confusion
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I would never allow 1 wire to serve 2 purpose

With all this said we are mostly talking about single family dwellings using NM cable. On most jobs I did we always had to run pipe then pull singles and no problem. With wire colors

 

[davesparks]

Dave all neutrals connect to the neutral bar in the panel the only neutrals that connect to single pole breakers and double pole breakers are GFCI breakers which the neutral connects to the breakers then the breakers have a what I call a pig tail that connects to the neutral bar. If you are referring to my previous statement about the neutrals and grounding conductors connected to the same bar.

I'm not talking about your previous statement, I'm talking about the photo in the opening post.
There are three large wires coming in which I assume are the two lives and neutral. What I assume is neutral goes to a terminal bar with a link to the metal case I understand that this is where you normally make a N-earth link in the US so seems fine to me. However I don't see any seperate ground terminal bar in the picture.
What I don't get is that all of the bare copper conductors which I understood to be ground then connect to what appears to be the neutral bar, while the black and white wires connect to the DP breakers.

 

[Megawatt]

I'm not talking about your previous statement, I'm talking about the photo in the opening post.
There are three large wires coming in which I assume are the two lives and neutral. What I assume is neutral goes to a terminal bar with a link to the metal case I understand that this is where you normally make a N-earth link in the US so seems fine to me. However I don't see any seperate ground terminal bar in the picture.
What I don't get is that all of the bare copper conductors which I understood to be ground then connect to what appears to be the neutral bar, while the black and white wires connect to the DP breakers.

Dave I can’t find that thread to look at that panel
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Dave I can’t find that thread to look at that panel

Dave first off that panel looked like crap yes the 3 double pole breakers are using the white wire to carry current and they all needed to be phase taped at least the panel was bonded to the neutral bar the grounding conductor wasn’t phase taped neither, and the cover was off with the main on
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I'm not talking about your previous statement, I'm talking about the photo in the opening post.
There are three large wires coming in which I assume are the two lives and neutral. What I assume is neutral goes to a terminal bar with a link to the metal case I understand that this is where you normally make a N-earth link in the US so seems fine to me. However I don't see any seperate ground terminal bar in the picture.
What I don't get is that all of the bare copper conductors which I understood to be ground then connect to what appears to be the neutral bar, while the black and white wires connect to the DP breakers.

I don’t know what to say but there was a lot mistakes in that panel
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Dave I can’t find that thread to look at that panel
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Dave first off that panel looked like crap yes the 3 double pole breakers are using the white wire to carry current and they all needed to be phase taped at least the panel was bonded to the neutral bar the grounding conductor wasn’t phase taped neither, and the cover was off with the main on
[automerge]1568075722[/automerge]

I don’t know what to say but there was a lot mistakes in that panel

Dave when it comes to multiple conductors in a ( cable ) your allowed to use any color on live except green then again you have to phase tape the wires including white. When it comes to singles up to # 8 the wire has to be the correct color no phase taping. In closing unfortunately the NM cable falls under multiple conductors.

 

[norcal]

Those SQ D Homeline breakers are not UL classified to be used in any competitive panel, and depending on the age is a ITE or Siemens panel, need to be Siemens or UL classified to be used in Siemens panels, breakers that are the same make as the panel are UL listed, but UL does classify some makes to be used in competitive panels, but you need the paperwork to prove it, the only way that should be done in my opinion is when the panel is obsolete & that is the only alternative like FPE, and Zinsco/Sylvania. Siemens is easy to get and just because a breaker fits does does not mean it is OK to use.

 

[Megawatt]

Those SQ D Homeline breakers are not UL classified to be used in any competitive panel, and depending on the age is a ITE or Siemens panel, need to be Siemens or UL classified to be used in Siemens panels, breakers that are the same make as the panel are UL listed, but UL does classify some makes to be used in competitive panels, but you need the paperwork to prove it, the only way that should be done in my opinion is when the panel is obsolete & that is the only alternative like FPE, and Zinsco/Sylvania. Siemens is easy to get and just because a breaker fits does does not mean it is OK to use.

If you put a breaker in your panel and it’s not the same brand name an inspector will fail that application. It’s like you said these old panels like Westinghouse, federal pacific, etc. Even though the breakers fit an inspector will fail it. It kind of sounds like you need an upgrade to your panel and Siemens makes a good panel

 

[norcal]

If you put a breaker in your panel and it’s not the same brand name an inspector will fail that application. It’s like you said these old panels like Westinghouse, federal pacific, etc. Even though the breakers fit an inspector will fail it. It kind of sounds like you need an upgrade to your panel and Siemens makes a good panel

There is no problem finding the correct breaker for that panel I attached some info to help, always liked ITE breakers and that is what current production Siemens QP, and Murray MP are just different branding. Since Siemens chose to discontinue the ITE brand and understand they are doing the same with Murray, paperwork like the below information makes the inspection process easier.