17 day whizz or Electrical Trainee

[KevinS]

What exactly are these people allowed to do if they join a scheme.
I was led to believe that they may ADD to an existing circuit, but not install one from scratch, also they are not allowed to change a db
am I correct or can they do anything they like

 

[Engineer54]

What exactly are these people allowed to do if they join a scheme.
I was led to believe that they may ADD to an existing circuit, but not install one from scratch, also they are not allowed to change a db
am I correct or can they do anything they like

That's funny, ....as most of these guy's use a CU change as the main show job to these so-called scheme assessors!! So i guess your wrong!! lol!!

 

[SJD]

Work they are competent to undertake (see, for example, EWR, Part II, clause 16):

Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury

16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience
is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge
or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the
nature of the work.

The "17-day" courses essentially only cover domestic work, with a very minimal look at 3 phase.

 

[snowhead]

I thought the training they received gave them qualifications recognised as being suitable persons for anything from a socket change to full install on a multimillion pound job, and to test and certify such installations.
And the experience and knowledge to fault find on any electrical installation without having to bother asking for the answer on forums.

If the above sounds like rubbish it's because I've just eaten too much cake from Aldi...

 

[Engineer54]

Work they are competent to undertake (see, for example, EWR, Part II, clause 16):

Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury

16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience
is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge
or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the
nature of the work.

In other words anything and everything, (self assessment)!! ...They are fully qualified don't you know!! lol!!!

 

[KevinS]

So I wasted 3 years 11 months of my life going to college every week, sitting at home doing homework etc etc

 

[SJD]

In other words anything and everything, (self assessment)!! ...They are fully qualified don't you know!! lol!!!

Someone not trained on industrial 3-phase would be foolish to start working on such an installation unsupervised. The trouble is, the competence might only get assessed after something has gone badly wrong.

 

[rich.250]

So I wasted 3 years 11 months of my life going to college every week, sitting at home doing homework etc etc

No! Not at all....
Myself and many others would not employ anyone without an apprenticeship or the like.
Let alone what the jib would say to a 17 day course lol

 

[cdavies33]

What exactly are these people allowed to do if they join a scheme.
I was led to believe that they may ADD to an existing circuit, but not install one from scratch, also they are not allowed to change a db
am I correct or can they do anything they like

I wish this was true mate, but sadly it is not

 

[Rockingit]

Hmmm.... maybe people are getting confused between full scope and defined scope part p?

Unfortunately, these guys get put through the sausage machine and told where to look up the answers when they do the online, open book, 2 hrs for 40 questions, revue all your answers before you hit send, regs exam. It's not exactly rocket science, is it?

 

[DNS1]

I'm a non-apprenticeship domestic installer/sparks who went down the quick course route. It suited me as I'm very experienced with domestic building work and electrics.

I had to sit exams to prove I understand the building regs and can work to 17th edition wiring regs. I also have to prove to the scheme/scam inspector that I know my stuff, have the correct documents and equipment and answer his/her questions about electrical work.

I know that I will never work on industrial electrics or HV, but I'm happy with that.

With regards the "I'd not employ anyone without an apprenticeship" comment, personally I think that's a shame. I'd like to think that an interview with someone would be a much better method of checking their abilities rather than just saying no because they've not done an apprenticeship.

 

[Super Dragpack]

From my experience, candidates with college certificates count for nothing in the real world and have cost me hundreds of thousands in their lack of experience. I'll take a "site trained" tradesman any day over a "college taught" one. I don't care what exams they managed to pass, I'm only interested in what skills they actually have whilst still ensuring they have sufficient certificates to permit them to work.

Remember that the 17th is not a LEGAL requirement, and neither is C&G2382. There is still no such thing as a legal requirement to become an electrician. BUT, when you conduct (excuse the pun) work in a domestic dwelling, this work either needs to be checked, inspected and approved by Building Regs or signed off by yourself, if so approved to do so under Part P.

Therefore, sections that are not covered by Part P (additions, replacement fittings, most things outside bathrooms and kitchens etc) can be done by anyone and signed off on a minor works form by anyone - yep, shocking as it sounds. However, who would use such a person for their job?

Therefore you have two choices:

1/ Go to college, get a whole long list of credentials and finally register and get approved under Part P using NIC, ECA etc and then start as a fully legal and trained "qualified" domestic electrician.

OR

2/ Gain lots of site experience, get your 17th Edition (C&G2382) as this is a requirement for the next step, and then register and get inspected to gain the needed Part P status. You can still attend college when ever you wish to add credentials to your portfolio if you wish.

What is best? I have no idea, but in my opinion it depends on the individual, his experience and skills more than whatever exams he passed sat in a room somewhere.

 

[Super Dragpack]

That's funny, ....as most of these guy's use a CU change as the main show job to these so-called scheme assessors!! So i guess your wrong!! lol!!

You are not permitted to replace a Consumer Unit without it being approved/registered under Part P, therefore you could do it and get building regs to inspect it, or do it and get it inspected as part of your Part P assessment - in which case it will be approved once/if you pass anyway.

 

[AP Electrical]

College gives you the technical knowledge required to work as an electrician to dismiss it just makes you a sparks mate / installer, people can house bash to there hearts content but as soon as they hit a fault there knackered this is where the technical knowledge comes in. To say a electrical trainee is equivalent to a time served spark is laughable at best and all that's wrong with the industry.

 

[Des 56]

If someone goes to college and passes a industry recognised course that has taken them a few years of study and hard work to obtain,they ought to be given every opportunity to obtain employment

Traditional apprenticeships via a company have dwindled for various reasons and the costs associated with the training has been passed to the individual
To my mind industry has gained tremendously through this change and should be compelled by law to have a percentage of their employees recruited from such areas,not dismissed and thrown on the scrapheap without a chance

Saying that employment is only for the experienced and you would not entertain application from the inexperienced,it would be letting our young ones down badly,yet again

 

[sparks1973]

look....if the prop up at the end of the bar can do it.....

 

[snowhead]

Traditional apprenticeships via a company have dwindled for various reasons

The main one being the Fast track schemes.
If fast track didn't exist and there was a shortage of qualified Sparks, Employers would have to take on apprentices and adult improvers, just as they did before the 6 month and now 5 week wonders.

You can't fast track to Gas, you shouldn't be able to fast track to Electrics.

 

[Engineer54]

You are not permitted to replace a Consumer Unit without it being approved/registered under Part P, therefore you could do it and get building regs to inspect it, or do it and get it inspected as part of your Part P assessment - in which case it will be approved once/if you pass anyway.

So what do you think they do then, pay the extortionate LABC fee's, or self cert it via/after the the so-called scheme assessment??

The crazy thing is, even a bona fide time served fully qualified electrician needs to jump through the same hoops as the guy that was stacking shelf's at Tesco's 18 days earlier!!

 

[Engineer54]

The main one being the Fast track schemes.
If fast track didn't exist and there was a shortage of qualified Sparks, Employers would have to take on apprentices and adult improvers, just as they did before the 6 month and now 5 week wonders.

You can't fast track to Gas, you shouldn't be able to fast track to Electrics.

And there would STILL be a shortage of qualified Electricians!! As you rightly state you can't fast track, technical knowledge and experience, they are best taught hand in hand with collage and fully qualified electricians!!!

 

[imago]

Fast track courses had, and have, nothing to do with the demise of apprenticeships. Shareholder dividends, short term planning, and the Unions getting too big for their boots are the three main causes.

Bean conters cottoned onto the idea that there was no need to invest time and money in training people when you could buy in the expertise and only pay for what you use. Short term planning screwed the manufacturing industry generally and apprenticeships specifically, 'just in time' strategys and the like. The Unions started to think they were in charge of manufacturing and indeed the universe, went against the wishes and best interests of their members, then got their arses kicked and haven't recovered.

The fast track courses are a knee jerk response to a long term problem. Every government we've had since the war has adopted a 'never mind the quality, feel the width' approach. YOP, YTS, 5 month courses, 5 week courses etc etc etc.

Industry and the wider society are now left in the position of only having one choice, make the best of it. No one wants to pay the bill for creating an infrastructure in skills and training which won't show a return for a generation. They'd much rather spend money on a shiny new fiddle and play it in the glow of the flames.

 

[Des 56]

The main one being the Fast track schemes.
If fast track didn't exist and there was a shortage of qualified Sparks, Employers would have to take on apprentices and adult improvers, just as they did before the 6 month and now 5 week wonders.

You can't fast track to Gas, you shouldn't be able to fast track to Electrics.

Quote by Super Dragpack
From my experience, candidates with college certificates count for nothing in the real world and have cost me hundreds of thousands in their lack of experience. I'll take a "site trained" tradesman any day over a "college taught" one. I don't care what exams they managed to pass, I'm only interested in what skills they actually have whilst still ensuring they have sufficient certificates to permit them to work.

Snowhead
My reply refered to the post above by Super Dragpack
I had the full course students in mind not the 3 week variety

My post was about young ones shouldered with the cost burden that was once the responsibility of industry,
They need opportunity and employers casting them aside because of lack of experience is a sorry state for the country
If these students were given opportunity, then the 5, 17 or whatever days courses that the thread is discussing would stop
Employers should be compelled by law to employee a set percentage of them



My post contained reference to years of study
If someone goes to college and passes a industry recognised course that has taken them a few years of study and hard work to obtain,they ought to be given every opportunity to obtain employment

Traditional apprenticeships via a company have dwindled for various reasons and the costs associated with the training has been passed to the individual

​

 

[sparks1973]

Fast track courses had, and have, nothing to do with the demise of apprenticeships. Shareholder dividends, short term planning, and the Unions getting too big for their boots are the three main causes.

Bean conters cottoned onto the idea that there was no need to invest time and money in training people when you could buy in the expertise and only pay for what you use. Short term planning screwed the manufacturing industry generally and apprenticeships specifically, 'just in time' strategys and the like. The Unions started to think they were in charge of manufacturing and indeed the universe, went against the wishes and best interests of their members, then got their arses kicked and haven't recovered.

The fast track courses are a knee jerk response to a long term problem. Every government we've had since the war has adopted a 'never mind the quality, feel the width' approach. YOP, YTS, 5 month courses, 5 week courses etc etc etc.

Industry and the wider society are now left in the position of only having one choice, make the best of it. No one wants to pay the bill for creating an infrastructure in skills and training which won't show a return for a generation. They'd much rather spend money on a shiny new fiddle and play it in the glow of the flames.

and the sadness of this is that other so called `developing countrys` are doing just that....plowing money into proper training for their youth....they recognise the value of sending them to educational institutions (either home or abroad)...when in time they will pass on what they`v learned to the up and coming.....while here in the uk...we just fobb off the electorate with fake stories of `progress`, `multiculturism` and the `modern way`...theres no depth or substance to any claims made now....

 

[imago]

and the sadness of this is that other so called `developing countrys` are doing just that....plowing money into proper training for their youth....they recognise the value of sending them to educational institutions (either home or abroad)...when in time they will pass on what they`v learned to the up and coming.....while here in the uk...we just fobb off the electorate with fake stories of `progress`, `multiculturism` and the `modern way`...theres no depth or substance to any claims made now....

I wouldn't worry too much, Britain will be a developing country too one day. We just have to get through the 'on it's arse' stage first.

 

[sparks1973]

I wouldn't worry too much, Britain will be a developing country too one day. We just have to get through the 'on it's arse' stage first.

yes...then it will be our turn again...like some sort of magic roundabout..lol...

- - - Updated - - -

florence are you a virgin..boyng its time for bed...

 

[pinksqueaks]

NOt hiring someone simply because they didnt come threough an appreticship scheme is both short sighted and antiquated.

move with the times people. Some of the best members of staff i employed came from non-related backgrounds. Im not doing a Electrical Trainee scheme but im also not going down the apprenticship route as i work full time as a PM. Doesn't mean i would be expected to be discounted because i didnt come through the 'traditional way'.

Needs a shake up just like teahcing did with all the suits moving into it.

and the sadness of this is that other so called `developing countrys` are doing just that....plowing money into proper training for their youth....they recognise the value of sending them to educational institutions (either home or abroad)...when in time they will pass on what they`v learned to the up and coming.....while here in the uk...we just fobb off the electorate with fake stories of `progress`, `multiculturism` and the `modern way`...theres no depth or substance to any claims made now....​

Read more: ​

oh yes you're right those kids in India/Russia and Brazil are doing SO WELL because of all the state money pumped into their training. Guffaw..

My goodness people.

 

[Spark1979]

I don't think think you need to be time served but I do think you should hold your NVQ level 2 & 3, or equilent for the old school, which shows some competency not just have city and guilds as they do not prove you can do the job just that you can pass exams, too many electricians come outta college never setting foot on the tools saying their qualified!

 

[johnboy6083]

I think that experience should be coupled with practical training.

Now if you employed a boy for say 4 years, and he became knowledgeable and experienced in domestic work, you are saying you would be happy letting them loose.
Effectivley you are tying a ball and chain around these lads legs. They will only have experience in the work they have done so far, without the theory knowledge to back it up, and they won't be able to solve new problems that present themselves on most jobs, especially older jobs.
You are the ones that are short sighted.
Ive worked for firms that don't give their blokes quals unless neccesary, and it's to retain staff. It's a horrible practice, and the thing is, these blokes actually feel grateful for their jobs, as without quals they can't move on.

 

[Mark1985]

I dont think that just completeing college makes you qualified,i've recently completed my 2330 level 2/3 gaining some experiance as a mate along the way and still feel as tho i don't know enough..I'm gonna be happy to work as mate/improver for a couple more years until i've gained enough practical experiance to call myself an electrician,hopefully this will go hand in hand in with what ive learnt at college..

 

[Spark1979]

Totally agree with mark1985 I completed 4 year apprentice on completion next day I was in charge of myself quite scary but I knew those around me were there to help if I had any queries without looking down on me, no electrician knows everything we learn something new every day ESP. Now the way technology is moving forward

 

[johnboy6083]

The traditional model was to go to college, whilst having a full time job as an apprentice/mate.
Later, I'm guessing that the move to self employed electricians on big sites meant that more lads had to fund themselves whilst at college, but they would still be working full time on site.
I think the current trend of lads going to college, and then trying to get work after is a step backwards. I'm not knocking any of you, because you find yourself with no other choice. I'm happy though that the new college courses require you to be working in the industry.
The same applies to higher education too. There are a few people on my HNC course who have no experience whatsoever in anything electrical. Their only choice will be to take low paying jobs to gain experience.
Our course tutor told me last week that he is really struggling to get the full time HNC students onto work experience placements. These are people who have left school, done ONC and then HNC.
The problem is not enough vocational training, and people having to work longer until retirement. This means that there isn't a decent turnover of labour that requires new blood in the industry.