18th Regulation 411.3.4

[NMJones]

Afternoon all,


Have a quotation regarding garage lighting which requires alteration. It’s a set of flats with a seperate large garage area which id class as commercial hence not needing an rcd as reg Regulation 411.3.4 states only in domestic.
The head of the flats is saying it’s classed as domestic area.
Board is mcbs but unsure I’ll squeeze a RCBO. C


Can you also just cover your own alterations with RCD or does it now have to be at the origin? I’d read on this forum it’s changed


Thanks in advance

 

[NMJones]

Is it being used for commercial purposes, is it solely occupied by businesses who pay business rates etc etc.
Or is it a bunch of domestic garages belonging to domestic properties/ intended for use in association with domestic properties?

Domestic garages

 

[Bobster]

Domestic garages

Think you've answered your question.

 

[snowhead]

I'd bet if you looked at the tenancy agreement for the flats, commercial use of the garages is specificaly prohibited.

That will be why the head of the flats is saying it’s classed as a Domestic area

 

[Welchyboy1]

Why pick over the difference of interpretation, seems it very likely to be domestic, just rcd protect the circuit with an independent rcd or rcd FCU above the board if you can

Then rest easy!

If in doubt just do worst case then you should not be caught out

Unless the cost is prohibitive that is, which in this case it seems trivial

 

[Bobster]

just rcd protect the circuit with an independent rcd or rcd FCU above the board if you can

RCD FCU's no longer comply as additional protection to the 18th edition.

 

[buzzlightyear]

RCD FCU's no longer comply as additional protection to the 18th edition.

thats going to p&& off some customers that what a extinction to a light .

 

[GBDamo]

The requirement is to provide RCD protection for the circuit.

Asked scheme this question and that's not the answer I was given.

"treat it as you would an addition to a socket circuit, if no RCD, provide additional protection for your addition."

An RCD FCU was suggested as suitable means of achieving additional protection.

Dontcha just love this game.

 

[GBDamo]

RCD FCU's no longer comply as additional protection to the 18th edition.

Likewise, I have been explicitly advised by scheme that this is not the case.

 

[Welchyboy1]

RCD FCU's no longer comply as additional protection to the 18th edition.

Why do they no longer apply?

 

[Bellendian]

The standard that they are manufactured to is not listed as a means of providing additional protection. Can't recall if it used to list it, or if it just said 30ma, but now it just says a 30ma device to 61008 or 61009 i think

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There’s 3 standards listed:
531.3.6 RCDs for additional protection
The use of RCDs with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30 mA is recognized as additional protection in compliance with Regulation 415.1. These RCDs shall be provided to comply with the requirements of Regulation 411.3.3. RCDs for additional protection in AC installations shall comply with:
- BS EN 61008 series, or
- BS EN 61009 series, or
- BS EN 62423.
Where installed at the origin of a final circuit or a group of final circuits, an RCD with a rated residual current not exceeding 30 mA may provide fault protection and additional protection simultaneously.
NOTE: Consideration shall be given to the division of the installation (see Regulations 531.3.2 and 314.2).

 

[Welchyboy1]

Rcd FCU's are bs 4293 if memory serves, will they be updating these now then or are they now no longer fit for purpose?
i suppose all single and double rcd sockets are now obsolete too as they are also bs4293

This is wrong surely!

Or an exercise in phasing out BS no.s over BS EN no.s which seems pointless pretty soon


Anybody got any answers? what a crock!

Looks like an ammendment is due already!

 

[Welchyboy1]

Just found this from iet which i think we already knew

In fact, when we adopted current operated devices (RCDs) to BS 4293, the trip times were much quicker than modern devices, although they may not comply with BS EN standards. BS 4293 was withdrawn in 2000 and manufacturing of these devices should have ceased in 2005. The device was replaced by BS EN 61008.

One of the negatives in using the older mechanical devices were that they could seize up. Modern devices are either electronic or electromagnetic.


So when adding to an older installation, say an old wylex split load with an older bs4293 rcd in place, we now cannot use this to protect our circuits and must use an additional rcd to BS 60898?

Seems a little rediculous to me?

I think ive got to start a new thread on this

 

[Andy78]

There’s 3 standards listed:
531.3.6 RCDs for additional protection
The use of RCDs with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30 mA is recognized as additional protection in compliance with Regulation 415.1. These RCDs shall be provided to comply with the requirements of Regulation 411.3.3. RCDs for additional protection in AC installations shall comply with:
- BS EN 61008 series, or
- BS EN 61009 series, or
- BS EN 62423.
Where installed at the origin of a final circuit or a group of final circuits, an RCD with a rated residual current not exceeding 30 mA may provide fault protection and additional protection simultaneously.
NOTE: Consideration shall be given to the division of the installation (see Regulations 531.3.2 and 314.2).

So does that mean that in a metal containment system where no additional protection is required for the cables, the additional protection for sockets could not be provided by 13A RCD sockets ?

 

[SparkyChick]

So does that mean that in a metal containment system where no additional protection is required for the cables, the additional protection for sockets could not be provided by 13A RCD sockets ?

Technically yes. I have received verbal advice from NAPIT that I can continue to use RCD spurs and sockets, but they wouldn't commit that in writing as, and I quote "that's just my (meaning the advisers) interpretation of the regulations".

I have used a few RCD spurs (which are manufactured to BS 7288 I believe) for providing additional protection since the introduction of the 18th but these have been listed as departures on the relevant certs.