2 spurs from a Junction Box....worried?

[mikep83]

Hi folks.

I cut one of the cables on my ring circuit, attached the 2 now separate ends to a new 30a junction box, and then run 2 additional spurs from the same junction box, using 32a twin and earth, on the end of each of these new spurs is a twin plug socket with usb.

I did the work with my father in law, who’s an avid DIYer and has been doing diy for 60 years.

We did a really good job, cables cut nice, neat, secure, tested them, and all working.

Due to a rush to get the job done before decorators, I pre installed the new sockets and cabling, ready for the junction, and only then did I realise I should have extended the ring.....it was too late, I had sealed the walls up and could not get another cable in. We used a square 30a MK box, which had ample room for the cables.

These are bedside outlets, not for heavy consuming items.

Some forums and people have now put the fear of god in me that this is dangerous, however I have read mixed opinions (e.g. apparatly 1 spur from any point is the Reg, ok.....so I have 2 on mine, but is this really much different than if I added another junction 10 inches away for my second spur)

Is this really a concern to warrant me ripping it all back out?

It’s a good tidy job.
I know there’s regulations and partP......hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Views?
Many thanks.

 

[Wilko]

Surely the way the op has done it is the same as if they’d spurred each double socket from 2 separate sockets already on the rfc? If he’d only used 1 cable from the jb to feed both double sockets, then it would be against the regs.

Hi - I'd say it's the "accepted practice" is to spread outlets and spurs around a ring to reduce the chance of long term heat damage from multiple 20A point loads. In my view, this is put at risk by having multiple spurs on top of each other, and does go against the informative guidance of Appendix 15.
In this case the use of the new spurs to run phone chargers and bed lamps is hardly going to be an issue .

 

[Wilko]

Surely the way the op has done it is the same as if they’d spurred each double socket from 2 separate sockets already on the rfc? If he’d only used 1 cable from the jb to feed both double sockets, then it would be against the regs.

Hi - I'd say it's the "accepted practice" to spread outlets and spurs around a ring to reduce the chance of long term heat damage from multiple point loads. I think this is the point of App 15 dot point (i). In my view, this is put at risk by having multiple spurs on top of each other. But in this case it's unlikely to be an issue as the loads are small (phone chargers and table lamps) .

 

[Rodders099]

Why doesn’t this forum just ban non-electricians from asking anything ?? Cause all I’m seeing on a daily basis, regardless to how basic the question is....is overly negative and sometimes hostile advice.
Absolutely ridiculous way to try and grow a forum.
This place will end up as an old boys club where you can only contribute if your a career electrician.

 

[Pete999]

@Pete999 , @Spoon

Is it a good plan? Not necessarily. Would I do it myself? Probably not but I wouldn't rule it out if I was pushed. Does it breach a regulation? Not as far as I can see.

Show me a regulation it breaches and why, and I'll agree with you, that's all I'm asking.

Can I point you in the direction of fig 15A Ring and final circuit arrangements Regulation 433.1.204,
This appendix sets out options for the design of ring and radial final ciccuits for household an similar premises in accordance with Regulation 433.1, using socket outlets and fused connection units. It does not cover other aspects of the circuit design such as:
Chapter 41, 42, 43 and Part 5 of these Regulations.
Quite why anyone would dispute this informative Appendix is beyond my thinking, it is self explanatory in it's design, so ignore it if you wish, I wont/didn't when I was working, and all through my working lifre 1 Spur equates to a single or double socket or a fused connection unit whereby you can feed as many 13 Amp sockets as you wish, taken from one point of a RFC. Taking 2 cables from a single point on a RFC to feed two sockets does not comply with this appendix. I see no point in continuing this argument, you have your appreciation and I however, go by the book.

 

[Pete999]

Common sense should prevail here. App 15 is informative, it does not definitely preclude connecting two spurs from the same point of the ring. Given that the sockets the OP installed are not likely to be heavily loaded it is not unreasonable to connect them in this manner, properly connected there will not be any potential dangers over connecting them to two separate points on the ring.

"are not likely to be heavily loaded" is the key to this argument, who is to say at some stage someone doesn't plug in a couple of 2KW heaters?

 

[SparkyChick]

About 8.7A each, 2.5/1.5mm has a CCC of around 26A when clipped direct so neither cable will be overloaded. Total loading at the junction box, 17.4A. Well within the capabilities of a 30A junction box.

 

[SparkyChick]

Like I've said, would I do it, not necessarily, but in this use case I think it's a perfectly acceptable solution that is not in breach of any regulations.

 

[Rpa07]

Anyway . . . the OP has done the job, to good standards in his own words. It’s his house and powers his bedside tables. He is in control of what gets plugged in there and he is able to access and remove or better connect these spurs if he comes to sell the place.
Some agree, some don’t but he’s still done the job.
Next time OP, question the forum first for the best non step by step guidance!

 

[Baddegg]

If the op was worried beforehand hand he’s probably ripping it all out as we speak now....

 

[Deleted member 9648]

In all honesty I've been in the trade 40 odd years and I cannot remember a single fault that I could attribute to uneven distribution of load on a ring. This whole thread is about making a mountain out of a molehill because it's a DIYer.

 

[Baddegg]

Op,if you ever come back, if you installed the cable in oval in the wall there’s a chance you could run a new cable tween the two sockets with minimal disruption and then make good the ring agian with MF connectors and boxes, or as many have said don’t worry about it unless you plan on plugging ya welding equipment into your bedside sockets!

 

[mikep83]

Thanks for the replies. It’s surprising do see so many differing views and opinions / interpretations of the regs from you experienced folks....says a lot in itself.

I have read the responses and conclude that it’s questionable if it’s regulations or not. Is it likely common in most older houses.....I reckon so, and a lot worse things out there.

Mathematically, it is possible to overload, is it likely....no.....I am very aware of it now, and we will be sensible about what we plug in and leave on.

I have a lot of trust in my father in law, we both did this, and I’m not an idiot either, we took care, and did a really good job, all be it, not the way I would have done it had I more time.

The irony of this, I had an electrician come out, and he wanted to run the new cables and 2 new doubles off the single socket on the ring, and through the joists alongside the central heating pipes.......yeah, you read that right.

The second irony, is my father in law, just had a new conservatory installed and they run 4 spur to spursnot on ring.....yep, you read that right too.

So I’m putting this into context, accepting I’m not an electrician, but have a new appreciation and learning to my bow......life is about learning......

My concern was not regs, but around safety, and they was a key point raised in the thread about ensuring the new installion works with the circuit breaker\trip switch........which I will get a proper sparky to check next room I do.

 

[mikep83]

Op,if you ever come back, if you installed the cable in oval in the wall there’s a chance you could run a new cable tween the two sockets with minimal disruption and then make good the ring agian with MF connectors and boxes, or as many have said don’t worry about it unless you plan on plugging ya welding equipment into your bedside sockets!

I tried, but the conduit was not big enough to get the 2nd cable in.

 

[Octopus]

Indeed, all that is happening here is some members are determined to shoot a DIYer down in flames, come what may.

I’ve given you a dumb, because your comment is very dumb

 

[Octopus]

The mathematical issue about overloading is irrelevant..... a ring with 2 other connections is very bad practice imho