2011 pay rise

[grantr37]

The agencies are all trying their luck now, as I said already I went to an interview which turned out to be 35 of us crammed into a room at a jobcentre, the Agency man scanned all our documents,had us fill in forms, got our bank details and even had the cheek to digital photograph all of us, then said (after advertising 14.50 an hour)"its like this, you will be doing sparky work, but on your contract you are a labourer,8 pounds an hour flat, no travel time or breaks, bring your own tools and PPE thats what the client wants.".....more like saying right I am going to charge sparky rates for you then pay you peanuts as I get 40% of the prfoits made in the year from my client accounts....and I'm going to fleece all of you..


I can see the agency being paid 20.00 per hour for you being there,paying you 8 pounds an hour, taking your Tax, National Insurance AND eployers national insurance off of you, then cooking the books with your expenses (when you try to claim a tax reduction) and keeping that as well..

then theres the fees for the Umbrella company-about 25 to 30 pounds a week (which the agency gets a % of as well for referring you)


And by LAW, the Agency is supposed to provide you with PPE including Steel toed boots, Hard Hat, a High vis vest, Gloves and safety Glasses.......they are supposed to be given money for this by the "Client" to buy it for you...what they do is tell you that you MUST buy/bring your own safety gear/ppe then they turn round to the comnpany and charge them 50 quid per worker for boots etc that are never issued and dont even exist...


so you get shafted on...

Rate of Pay

Expenses

Clothing and PPE, which the Agencies collect money for..

Double charged National Insurance

No Holiday pay

No sick pay

Sacked at the drop of a hat, with no reason given just because the gaffer has had a bad day or the man/woman at the agency doesnt like you for complaining about your treatment/rights...

Also when you are working and living in say, London, and the company says on Friday"next week on monday its Liverpool" see you there...they are as far as I know supposed to pay for fuel and Digs, but no company ever pays digs now and a lot of sparkies just suck it up and pay for it themselves to keep a job, this started about 3 years ago now and has a lot to do with agencies, people used to get their digs paid and a daily amount added to wages for food as it was an obligation for companies sending you away from home and your own house through no choice of your own, now its just tough luck...

I wonder if the Agencies are getting paid Digs and just keeping it as extra profit? I have never seen an agency worker driving an old car or wearing cheap clothes...

 

[flyingsausage]

The agencies are all trying their luck now, as I said already I went to an interview which turned out to be 35 of us crammed into a room at a jobcentre, the Agency man scanned all our documents,had us fill in forms, got our bank details and even had the cheek to digital photograph all of us, then said (after advertising 14.50 an hour)"its like this, you will be doing sparky work, but on your contract you are a labourer,8 pounds an hour flat, no travel time or breaks, bring your own tools and PPE thats what the client wants.".....more like saying right I am going to charge sparky rates for you then pay you peanuts as I get 40% of the prfoits made in the year from my client accounts....and I'm going to fleece all of you..


I can see the agency being paid 20.00 per hour for you being there,paying you 8 pounds an hour, taking your Tax, National Insurance AND eployers national insurance off of you, then cooking the books with your expenses (when you try to claim a tax reduction) and keeping that as well..

then theres the fees for the Umbrella company-about 25 to 30 pounds a week (which the agency gets a % of as well for referring you)


And by LAW, the Agency is supposed to provide you with PPE including Steel toed boots, Hard Hat, a High vis vest, Gloves and safety Glasses.......they are supposed to be given money for this by the "Client" to buy it for you...what they do is tell you that you MUST buy/bring your own safety gear/ppe then they turn round to the comnpany and charge them 50 quid per worker for boots etc that are never issued and dont even exist...


so you get shafted on...

Rate of Pay

Expenses

Clothing and PPE, which the Agencies collect money for..

Double charged National Insurance

No Holiday pay

No sick pay

Sacked at the drop of a hat, with no reason given just because the gaffer has had a bad day or the man/woman at the agency doesnt like you for complaining about your treatment/rights...

Also when you are working and living in say, London, and the company says on Friday"next week on monday its Liverpool" see you there...they are as far as I know supposed to pay for fuel and Digs, but no company ever pays digs now and a lot of sparkies just suck it up and pay for it themselves to keep a job, this started about 3 years ago now and has a lot to do with agencies, people used to get their digs paid and a daily amount added to wages for food as it was an obligation for companies sending you away from home and your own house through no choice of your own, now its just tough luck...

I wonder if the Agencies are getting paid Digs and just keeping it as extra profit? I have never seen an agency worker driving an old car or wearing cheap clothes...

I agree with every word you say Grant.Working for an agency means you are getting ripped off.You should be getting an extra £1.50 above the rate to take into account holiday pay.
I have had a few bad experiences with some agencies not getting paid,getting pumped with no notice etc and I have to learn from this.And I now advoid certain ones.
I have been noticing in certain weeks different agencies advertising the same job and the rates varying from £13 to £16 an hour between the agencies.You can tell from this which ones are just legal crooks.It is better to stick to the bigger national or international ones as you are at least going to get the approved rate.
On the subject off the PPE you are classed as self employed if you get paid through an umbrella company and would have to supply your own.Last year I was working agency and asked the company I was working for a new pair off overalls and the gaffers face was a picture as he had no intention of getting me any.It would have just taken him a couple of minutes on the phone to order me up some.
Another point is all the different courses and tickets for different jobs now.I missed out one two jobs last week,one was as I didn't have a one day first aid certificate and another which was advertising for COmpex sparks but wanted the dust part as well as the gas.And this week I missed out on a job for water treatment as I do not have a confined spaces ticket.
I spent hours on the phone yesterday asking for a company or agency (scumbags) to put me through the PTS for railway work and drew a blank at getting anyone to put me through it.The nearest I got was one company would sponser me if I paid for it myself £252 and I need a medical and drugs and alchol test £120 before I do the course £372 just to try to get a chance of a job and the ticket only lasts for two or three years I think.There is a growing industry in training men up when will it stop as no company wants to pay for anything.
For my two cents worth thefuture is bleak or the working man in the electrical trade the hundreds of times I send out a cv and apply for jobs and get no response back makes me wonder is it worth it.You do feel worthless after a while on the dole and wonder if you will ever work again.The short term attitude with most companies now is shocking in the least the amount off sparks leaving the trade must be huge.And you like to think that there will be a shortage of sparks in the future but it won't happen with all the labourers doing installation work now.
If I was ten years younger I would be looking to leave this country for somewhere better

 

[Apollo]

I must say its not just agencies that rip off the average sparky.

I sub'd out a very large piece of work this year as I was Project managing the Job and speaking to the guys on the ground and listening to them moan and whine about their pay, knowing full well what I was paying the firm for each employee...

I told them, and they were not supprised!!! Just "took it on the chin" so to speak!!!

I suppose it depends how high up the food chain you are as to what you earn????

 

[grantr37]

well I have been told I need a 3 day first aid course for about a dozen or so jobs now, I asked a few companies about it and the cheapest I have been offered was 375pounds plus vat (about 500 pounds) also I have had the PTS (Personal Track Safety course) problem, I was allowed to work on the railway in 2007 without one as it suited Network-R, now I cant get work on the rail and the Agencies speak to me like floor scum when I ask about Rail jobs because I don't have a PTS card.....if you want to rewire a grocery shop in a train station now they demand a PTS card...this is valid for 1 year nowadays as far as I know, I have asked about with various different companies and they have either told me that they don't do it, or that it will cost about 1000pounds for a 1 day course and that I have to be already working for a Rail maintenance company or train operator...so cant be allowed to do it..
As well as this the agencies quite often ask for an access to substations certificate if their advert says that it will be working on a low voltage switch room......and for an Authorisation card from a power company (which you only get if you work for them books in) to do meter installations....its quite funny because I have met a Council office worker who left and got a Job at S-SE because his big sister was going with a manager there, he did a 2 week basic course for which he was sent to their head office, then he was straight out on the tools with a company van and a plastic arc flash visor changing meters in houses and businesses...and doing homers..

The Agencies dont care how you pay for the Tickets/safety passes/3 day courses all they do is say to their customer (mug) that another mug (us) "is fully trained and qualified to their highest standards" I wouldnt be surprised if they tell them that they trained you themselves or paid for it for you in their patter....

Agencies get paid more for a worker with a first Aid certificate, and dont pass it on, I think the law actually says that a first aider is supposed to get an extra 1 pound 50 an hour, the HSE and Government made it a requirement to try and encourage people to do a first aid with small wage rise incentives to boost site health and safety........all that happens is that somebody else pockets it and doesnt crack a light...

I watched a sparky come on site once who had done some kind of advanced first aid course(something like 2 weeks with an oil rig or something) he never got paid any extra and was told several times to his face that the only reason he was there was his first aid certificate as he was the only one on site and they had to have him there......then I watched him get pumped (paid off) when an agency supplied a European with a 1 day first aid ticket that they had done themselves (on 7 pounds an hour) I watched him getting some verbal from the contracts manager, told to fill in his time sheet then at 12:30 on a Tuesday it was shoved into the Fax machine in front of him at the reception girls front desk (manager- "I hope you dont have any of our tools in your car"-) right away you go, and good luck with your future jobs......shuffles off into car park sulking and gone...

 

[flyingsausage]

Just read this thread and reminded of how I hate the lying agency scum.

 

[glasgowbiker42]

FES apparently paid off 30 odd boys a few weeks ago!
Unfortunately they have managed to avoid narrowly going bust twice in the past which i can recall more's the pity as they are a shower of wretches!!!:rant:

 

[flyingsausage]

I wish they would go bust and do us all a favour,they have ruined the trade for the rest of us in Scotland.
I have no sympathy for any of the clampits that are now signing on.
There used to be about 300 clampit sparks and labourers at the companies peak I wonder how many are left now.
Balfours are also paying sparks of from their Building Services side across the Central Belt - most of this lot signed the BESNA and look at how they were rewarded.I have no sympathy for anyone that signed that fake agreement.

 

[Arnold Layne]

Sausage, I can't speak about FES because I know very little about them but I am sorry for anyone who is made redundant, especially in this economic climate. I deeply regret the loss of any direct jobs in this industry because they are so few and hard to come by. I am also sorry for the Balfour sparks ( and here I will admit knowledge because at one stage long ago I worked for them) Yes they signed the BESNA deal, but I don't follow your logic. They signed, but Balfour couldn't implement it so I don't see how you can say "look how they were rewarded". I also do not understand your comment about having no sympathy with them. What did they do that was so wrong? ( hear me out on this) They were offered a contract which gave them T&Cs that were the same as they were on, a rate of pay that was the same and if that was not good enough reason for them, as individuals, to sign ,then Unite bowled up and told them to sign so how on earth can you realistically blame them for signing. Now Ok there were other issues around BESNA which related to Agency guys and on that basis you can construct an argument that they failed to display solidarity, but they are individuals who need to make their own decisions, to keep a roof over their heads, to put food on the table for their families and I will always defend their right to make those decisions because they are just ordinary guys trying to do their best for those that rely on them. If you want to find a group to blame ( and I am hesitant to do this ) is it not worse that the Agency guys sell their labour too cheap? ( I know you have posted on this and refuse to do so, but others do, so I feel it is unfair to take it out on the guys that signed BESNA) They were not underselling their skill. They were not underselling the rate. For them it was a reasonable deal. So why attack them? What solidarity is there in that.

 

[madmac]

Once again Arnold you have not understood the full facts regarding BES(NA) and you fail to comprehend exactly what was at/is at stake when sparks behave as "individuals" when they work under a "National Agreement"!!!
Firstly, you state that these guys would be kept on the same rates of pay as they are on just now, this was the biggest company lie of the all as when the HR Mnager Gerry Harvie was quizzed on this he admitted that they would drop your rate of pay when your current job was finished!!!!
Secondly, Unite were facing the reality that men who didn't sign the BES(NA) were to be made redundant and in order for any official ballot for strike action and any future campaign at Balfours to continue, they had to grit their teeth and ask the men to sign for the bigger picture and to fight another day!!!
You say "They were not underselling their skill. They were not underselling the rate. For them it was a reasonable deal. So why attack them?", because they were underselling their skills and they were underselling their rate and it was unreasonable for them to accept BES(NA) on their own without any regards to the existing National Agreement or the future of our industry!!!!
Arnold, you need to look at the bigger picture of apprentice training, our rates being stagnated, our conditions being eroded and our collective responsibility to each other and a National Union Agreement that has protected and trained us all!!!
There can be no excuses for individualism when taken in context with our National Union Agreement and it's not acceptable for individual sparks to decide the future of our industry, it is for union members to decide the future and for every spark to become an active union member also!!!

 

[glasgowbiker42]

If you take a step back and objectively cosider both arnold and madmac's arguments both have merit and both show that we are dealing with a very complex number of issues, which we have to address. All of these issue's are much easily addressed from a collective bargaining position where we have to regain if not the advantage then an equal footing with the employers in any bargaining situation as we both need each other in equal measure. First priority before any other issues are tackled is membership of the union, which in an ideal world like the shipyards back in the day where you couldn't get through the gate unless you had a union card. You can't get on a job without a cscs card these days so why not a union card?

 

[flyingsausage]

Arnold the Balfour sparks that were books in at the time of the BESNA dispute were lucky enough to be working and enjoy the full benefits of the National Agreements (SJIB/JIB).
They had the power to stop the BESNA in its tracks and they did so.
The fight back from a hurt tiger (BBES) has begun and they are paying of sparks all over the country I believe with some being chosen for redundancy specially for their anti BESNA actions.

With regards to the BESNA the books in sparks with the dirty seven had a moral obligation to themselves and every other contracting spark in the country to reject the BESNA.
Sure they could sign it and not see a drop in wages but they won't be with the same company forever and would be suffering when they looking for a new job and would only see adverts for £10 and hour installers working through agencies.
These companies plan was to spread propaganda(lies) about their new one sided non agreement(BESNA) and use bully boy and fear tactics to force their men to sign it,which many did.

It was fine for the likes of myself who was not working at the time to go to the protests,but the real power was with the books in sparks with these companies who would choose wheather the BESNA went through or not.



Arnold if you download a copy of the BESNA and read through it you will realise why we were fighting against it for so hard and for so long - it would have put tens of thousands of sparks from all over the country out of work in the space of a few months,and would have forced most out of the trade altogether.
Or sparks could take jobs as installers and be forced to do the same job through and agency for money which they can.t live on,where is the good in that?

The only winners out of the BESNA was the employers,every employee and the tools would be a looser and basicly would just be paid the same as a looser.

These major companies have seen their attempt fail but they will be back with something else in the future or their goal might be to go down the unoffical route they are using at the moment to pump most of their books in sparks and use agency for 90% of their labour.With this route they cn have all the labourers they want to do the installation and any sparks on site that object will be pumped in a instant at no cost to the employer and no come back from the spark.

We have to think how much worse the industry has become and how far downwards it has falllen since the downturn in 2008,and we have to think how will the electricial contracting industry look like in the future.
Do we want a future when our young sit on the dole and every building site in the country is full of workers that can't speak English?
Do we have to go back in time and have less rights in work now than the Victorians had because of bogus self employment?
Do we have to work for agencies and get no rights at work and no basics like holiday pay or PPE?

And do remember that many died over years of protests to help the plight of the working man who had to live in poverty and work 80 hour weeks to survive - do we really want to go back to that because most people don't and will sit on the dole before suffering that.

 

[Farmelectrics]

well said sausage

 

[Arnold Layne]

Sausage, thank you for taking the trouble to reply to my post, I appreciate it. I would not do you or others the disservice of speaking about BESNA without reading it. I have a copy ( so do not need to download it) and it is well worn! The point I was trying to make is that from the perspective of the individual books in spark then you can't blame him/her for signing it. They lost nothing and secured their job by signing, that it all. I was not saying they were right or wrong, just that I can understand why someone who needs to keep their family would have signed it.

You are absolutely correct it was only the books in sparks that could stop it... and less than 200 ( maybe 300, I can't remember the vote) of 5,000 did so because the others never got the chance to vote. And BESNA wasn't just a deal for sparks it was plumbers and fitters as well and nobody asked them ( well except the employers).

You make some valid points, about the young, foreign workers, and enforced self employment. These are real problems which need to be addressed. But to find solutions to real problems we need to face reality and simply saying that we need to go back to the ways things have always been done will only result in the way things are. The way things are has caused these problems, so the way things are is not the solution.

You are absolutely correct the books in sparks would not have lost anything individually from BESNA but the contracting spark would. And the reason for that is simply that the the work on Construction sites has changed and the JIB Agreement has not changed. I have never known an industry fight so hard for skilled men to do semi skilled work, it is normally the reverse. So it goes... and the modules will be made in the factories and be shipped to site and the number of electricians required on site will be fewer, BESNA or no, as long as we deny the reality.

I want an industry where there are skilled men/women doing skilled work at decent rates of pay and terms and conditions. Where the young have opportunities in profitable companies. I do not want to be like the luddites..I do not want history to bury us.

 

[Arnold Layne]

Mac, I respect your position but do not agree with it. Firstly the facts suggest that there is no National Agreement which is uniformly adhered to..that is an illusion.. and we all know it..if there were we would not be in this situation( which I agree is not good). Secondly I believe that I do understand the full facts around BESNA, but that is not the point and is of no interest to anyone other than you and I. Thirdly and I think that this is the issue on which you and I will part ( albeit I hope on friendly terms) I do believe in the individual. That is not to say that I do not accept that there not is a collective responsibility and I certainly do not subscribe to the view that there is no such thing as Society.But I will go to the barricades to defend the rights of individuals to hold the views they do.

Stalin hated individuals and he destroyed them in their hundreds of thousands and I cannot accept that this was morally acceptable. So I take the view that individuals have the right to determine their own choices, without bullying or intimidation. Where they wish to come together for the common good, of their own free will, is an excellent place to be and one I would subscribe to. But there are reasons for individualism and I will go to the barricades to defend them. So the sparks that signed BESNA, in my view, were only doing the rational thing for them. The rest of us may not like it but surely we can understand their motivation?

I do see a bigger picture, but it is clearly not the one you see, so fair enough. But in my picture there is globalisation, there is the search for competitiveness, productivity. And in my picture there is Greece, the eurozone, the Chinese, the Indians and the financial markets and they are coming to get us and we need to defend ourselves against these forces. No National Agreement trained me. I was trained by an employer's individuals who taught me what I know about this industry, good men and good employers, but maybe I have just been lucky! Another Union in another time may have influenced the training, but it was not this Union and it was not this time. I am convinced that we all have the best interests of the industry at heart, but we just believe that the solutions are different.