220v. 230v, 240v, 250v?

[John-SJW]

I saw an oven that was rated at 3,100 watts. Now most would say that cannot be fitted on final ring circuit as rule of thumb. But:
3,100 watts draws amps of:
14.09 amps @ 220v
13.47 amps @ 230v
12.91 amps @ 240v
12.4 amps @ 250v

If the installation is 240v or 250v then it safely inside the 13 amp of a final ring circuit.

The question is, and the regs aficionados can help here, what is the voltage that should be used to assess, as maybe the voltage will vary in an installation over the years.

 

[Sparky Pat]

How many rings did that hob have?

4

 

[ipf]

But I think we have a concensus that this is a mistake.


Achtung!
The Kookerhob is greatpowerneeding and the elektrische Kabels have to be placed bei the Skilledtechnician. In Europe is to make 16A Kuppling with a Schukostecker allowed. In Grossbritannien, because the dumme Plugtoppen the Weakcontacts and Stupidlittlefuses which like Heatelements often the Outburning or Downmelting are the cause of are required to have, is max. 13A permitted. Offchoppen von Plugtoppen is ABSOLUT NICHT GESTATTET!

Are you Stanley Unwin in disguise?

 

[Julie.]

in myold house, back in the 70's the fuse box ( wylex with 3036's) was labelled "Achtung. Gerfingerpoken Verboten".

I prefer a label like this:

 

[LastManOnline]

When we take it out of the box it is rated at 3700 watts and is factory fitted with a lead and 13 amp plug so as we are told to follow manufacturers instructions I then duly fitted a single socket to the cooker outlet circuit and plugged the Hob in.

Remember the terms "close excess protection" and "coarse excess protection" (not sure if they are used much any more). But manufacturers would be aware that most fuses are pretty crude devices. A 13 amp fuse will happily carry 15,16 amps for more than enough time than it takes to cook your chicken in an ovan or have fry your chop and boil your spud

 

[LastManOnline]

I would never have connected a hob to 13A plug, irrespective of what the manufacturer sent it with. It is a matter of doing it safely, not covering your rear end - or believing them (some dodgy, and vague, instructions out there from many makers).

"Manufacturers instructions". Well that deserves a thread all of its own. The intent is correct. Who knows an appliance better than its maker.? But like everything, it's open to abuse. The solution in my view is proper scrutiny. Instructions without explanations is always a bad idea. Some manufacturers clearly see it as a blank cheque.

 

[Julie.]

Remember the terms "close excess protection" and "coarse excess protection" (not sure if they are used much any more). But manufacturers would be aware that most fuses are pretty crude devices. ....

Course protection was essentially a rewirable fuse (and cartridge fuses q2 or R class), and close protection was a cartridge fuse, the terms were removed when the cable sizing method was revamped and the single rated value used for fuses, mcb... etc. Rather than a different value for each type of device based on the 1.5x over 4 hours.

I think it was removed in the 15th edition, but could have been 16th

 

[ipf]

Coarse protection was essentially a rewirable fuse (and cartridge fuses q2 or R class), and close protection was a cartridge fuse, the terms were removed when the cable sizing method was revamped and the single rated value used for fuses, mcb... etc. Rather than a different value for each type of device based on the 1.5x over 4 hours.

I think it was removed in the 15th edition, but could have been 16th

I thought it was after the 16th, when we had the infamous 'bond everything' theory but I now reckon it was 'removed' by the 15th. Found a 1981 Whitfield Guide to 15th with no mention of 'close and coarse'....just HBC, MCB and rewireable.
For cable ratings, certainly in the 14th, it was a case of 'the ratings tabulated
may be multiplied by 1.33 where close excess current protection can be assured'. For some larger cables it was the other way round (x 0.75), because of HBC protection. For others (larger supply cables, generally) ratings were the same for both.
No cable tables for the 15th but it may have been where tabulated values became all 'close'.......?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

manufacturers would be aware that most fuses are pretty crude devices. A 13 amp fuse will happily carry 15,16 amps for more than enough time than it takes to cook your chicken

I think this is a slightly disingenuous observation on fuses. And a reputable manufacturer would not exploit a known undesirable situation (non-tripping overload of OCPD). So I still contend that the hob in question is not supposed to be set to deliver 3.7kW from a 13A plug.

 

[LastManOnline]

I think this is a slightly disingenuous observation on fuses

I think you "slightly" misunderstood. My reference was to how an appliance manufacturer would be aware of the tolerance of 13 amp fuse. Disingenuous??

. And a reputable manufacturer would not exploit a known undesirable situation (non-tripping overload of OCPD).

Of course he would, nt. That's why he is known as reputable. The OP clearly had some doubts about this particular manufacturer. The"badlyworded" English (you highlighted in jest), in the instructions will does little to inspire a consumers confidence.

. So I still contend that the hob in question is not supposed to be set to deliver 3.7kW from a 13A plug.

You are entitled to your contention. But it does not harmonize with the stated manufacturers instructions as displayed by the OP.

"The plug limits the maximum power output 3.7KW" is badly worded but as DPG stated, the intent is clear and...... incorrect

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The appliance that I was referring to was made by/for a large, reputable, European HQ'd manufacturer whose brands account for a good fraction of mid to high-end UK appliance sales. My observation was specifically that it seems more likely that the literature and specification is in error, at least in the English version, than the design of the appliance.

My reasoning is that the error appears to be of a form that often occurs when different versions of a product are marketed to different territories with different versions of instructions. Sections that need to be replaced altogether to account for version differences are sometimes translated instead. Here, I suspect that the difference between the maximum power input permitted in the UK and German versions has been overlooked when compiling the English instructions.

E.g. where a German manual instructs the user to connect the appliance to a 16A Schuko socket, the English might say 'Connect the appliance to a 16A safety contact'. The incorrect wording 'safety contact' is a clue that a section of text that should have been replaced outright with 'Connect the appliance to a 13A socket-outlet' has instead been translated, therefore the reference to 16A might also be a mistake. Just as I routinely find instructions for US-made, CE-marked, 230V-compatible gear sold in the UK to use only a UL-listed cordset to connect it to my 120V grounded receptacle.

In summary, I do not think it was the intention of Bosch to imply that a 3.7kW load may be supplied via a 13A plug, and therefore to flag it as bad design and blame such a practice for damage and failure would require verification as to whether that really was their intention. If so, then I agree fully that it is bad design.

 

[static zap]

If so, then I agree fully that it is bad design.

i take it as a cheeky prod , Our EU 16A is bigger than your inferior 13A.
(though you are fused down inherently safer ,and more efficient)

 

[John-SJW]

The appliance that I was referring to was made by/for a large, reputable, European HQ'd manufacturer whose brands account for a good fraction of mid to high-end UK appliance sales. My observation was specifically that it seems more likely that the literature and specification is in error, at least in the English version, than the design of the appliance.

My reasoning is that the error appears to be of a form that often occurs when different versions of a product are marketed to different territories with different versions of instructions. Sections that need to be replaced altogether to account for version differences are sometimes translated instead. Here, I suspect that the difference between the maximum power input permitted in the UK and German versions has been overlooked when compiling the English instructions.

E.g. where a German manual instructs the user to connect the appliance to a 16A Schuko socket, the English might say 'Connect the appliance to a 16A safety contact'. The incorrect wording 'safety contact' is a clue that a section of text that should have been replaced outright with 'Connect the appliance to a 13A socket-outlet' has instead been translated, therefore the reference to 16A might also be a mistake. Just as I routinely find instructions for US-made, CE-marked, 230V-compatible gear sold in the UK to use only a UL-listed cordset to connect it to my 120V grounded receptacle.

In summary, I do not think it was the intention of Bosch to imply that a 3.7kW load may be supplied via a 13A plug, and therefore to flag it as bad design and blame such a practice for damage and failure would require verification as to whether that really was their intention. If so, then I agree fully that it is bad design.

Was the Bosch induction hob installer settable from 3Kw to 3/7kW? The instructions were wrong for sure.

The British 13A plug is inferior? I have not seen any plug/socket arrangement that is better. None. The earthed Schuko socket with a 13A fuse in the plug would be a great advancement being something the British could take up creating some sort of standardisation. I like the idea of drilling only a round hole to fit a socket.

 

[DPG]

Was the Bosch induction hob installer settable from 3Kw to 3/7kW? The instructions were wrong for sure.

The British 13A plug is inferior? I have not seen any plug/socket arrangement that is better. None. The earthed Schuko socket with a 13A fuse in the plug would be a great advancement being something the British could take up creating some sort of standardisation. I like the idea of drilling only a round hole to fit a socket.

Did he say the British 13A plug is inferior?

 

[nicebutdim]

Did he say the British 13A plug is inferior?

Possible that something was lost in translation, but I understood Lucian to mean that the hob's design could be considered poor if it could be verified that Bosch's intention was to supply the full 3.7kW load through a 13A plug - he didn't believe this to be the case.


Edit: Have I just taken the bold step of attempting to clarify a point made by Lucian? Better get my coat...

 

[static zap]

British 13A plug is inferior?

Only on a playground dispute ,my number is bigger than yours basis ,
(But I still have my Eurovision bitterness to deal with)