3 wire (2 hots/1 ground...no neutral) Range wiring ok?

[VBJMUduke]

New range on the way and took our the old range (about 2010 install) that was hard wired in with 2 hot wires (black and red) and a green ground wire that was attached to the neutral wire post on the old range.

diagram for new range says that 3 wires should be red & black hots along with a white neutral. the ground wire is added for a 4-wire installation and is attached at the neutral wire slot with the white neutral wire. This original 3-wire (no neutral) worked on the old range for about 10 years, but I'm wondering if someone cut corners in the last installation that I should be concerned about now? Can I screw the ground into the neutral/ground connection without a neutral wire and not worry about some possible impending doom I am opening us up to?

 

[pc1966]

In the UK at least you are not allowed to common neutral and earth (ground) within an installation due to the safety implications of an open N/E wire making the chassis of the appliance live if you have any unbalanced load at all.

Now the rules across the pond on wiring may be very different so I can't tell you what you can or cannot do, but electricity is exactly the same!

If it were me doing it then I would just spend the extra few dollars on new wire and (as needed) professional installation of the circuit rather than put at risk my life and that of any family or friends.

 

[freddo]

I believe using the ground wire as a combined neutral and ground was permitted in the USA up until 1996. I've no idea if the existing circuit needs to be upgraded to current standards before your new range is connected though.

 

[VBJMUduke]

thanks for the responses. Didn't know if I was overreacting...but sounds like I'm not. Time to call in a pro.

 

[Megawatt]

New range on the way and took our the old range (about 2010 install) that was hard wired in with 2 hot wires (black and red) and a green ground wire that was attached to the neutral wire post on the old range.

diagram for new range says that 3 wires should be red & black hots along with a white neutral. the ground wire is added for a 4-wire installation and is attached at the neutral wire slot with the white neutral wire. This original 3-wire (no neutral) worked on the old range for about 10 years, but I'm wondering if someone cut corners in the last installation that I should be concerned about now? Can I screw the ground into the neutral/ground connection without a neutral wire and not worry about some possible impending doom I am opening us up to?

Welcome to the forum and back years ago you was allowed to use the ground wire as a neutral 3 wire. If you change your range you have to bring it up to today’s standards which means you need 2 hits,1 neutral, and an equipment ground. Take that bonding jumper out and wire the 2 hots and neutral, the equipment ground terminates on the frame of the range

 

[Cookie]

Welcome to the forum and back years ago you was allowed to use the ground wire as a neutral 3 wire. If you change your range you have to bring it up to today’s standards which means you need 2 hits,1 neutral, and an equipment ground. Take that bonding jumper out and wire the 2 hots and neutral, the equipment ground terminates on the frame of the range

You were allowed to ground through the neutral yes, but if it was Romex or conduit the neutral was required be insulated.

See 250.41 Exception #3 in the 2017 NEC:

Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only where an
equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction
box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted
cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part
of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be connected to
the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.

(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or
208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected
system.

(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or
8 AWG aluminum.

(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor
is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and
the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.

(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment
are bonded to the equipment.

However, it was a very common error to run two wire NM with a bare ground, I am guilty of doing the same before I knew better.

 

[Megawatt]

You were allowed to ground through the neutral yes, but if it was Romex or conduit the neutral was required be insulated.

See 250.41 Exception #3 in the 2017 NEC:



However, it was a very common error to run two wire NM with a bare ground, I am guilty of doing the same before I knew better.

The NEC made that change in the 2014 edition

 

[Cookie]

Even before that, I remember it had to be insulated if it was romex. I'll screen shot the 1999 or some earlier version.

Alright, here is the 1993 NEC when we were still allowed to ground through the neutral:

https://imgur.com/JANRL6x

View: https://Upload the image directly to the thread.com/JANRL6x

 

[norcal]

It was permitted to ground the frames of cooking equipment & clothes dryers to the neutral prior to the adoption of the 1996 NEC, it is still permitted in existing installations, but if any modifications are done that means it has to be brought up to current code, IMO, it was long overdue for a change, should have been done decades before.