3phase industrial - clear a couple of things up?

[uksel]

not sure i'd say this instance was against the regs, i'd struggle to say your point was debatable at best

an example i can think of (which is probably higher risk) is when running cables in metallic trunking

any 90 degree bends or jumps are much more likely to suffer snagging or damage. especially when there's plenty of cables in there and you're trying to get the lid on, very easy for them to go pop when it's all juiced up

 

[Darkwood]

not sure i'd say this instance was against the regs, i'd struggle to say your point was debatable at best

an example i can think of (which is probably higher risk) is when running cables in metallic trunking

any 90 degree bends or jumps are much more likely to suffer snagging or damage. especially when there's plenty of cables in there and you're trying to get the lid on, very easy for them to go pop when it's all juiced up

With respect that would normally come down to installation and just been careful when laying them in, also the trunking should be earthed too so limiting the chance of sitting there live!!- waiting for the first unsuspecting person to touch it, and finally anyone else accessing the trunking should be at least knowledgable if not trained unlike the ceiling grid issue where multiple trades and other persons will remove tiles and may in turn snag and damage existing cables.
Overall at the end of the day the grid is open and exposed with sharp edges and accessable to anyone whereas the trunking would be a containment to enclose and protect the cables from damage, and if sharp edges are within the trunking then remove them or file them down.

Ive been fitting trunking for years, a good quality trunking should be used and any mitred bends you make should also be of a good standard, i find a metal brush wheel in my drill a god-send when de-burring and smoothing the edges.

Also remembering the spacing factor for trunking means getting lids on shouldnt be an issue, its sounds like your working with trunking filled beyond its capacity so you need to increase its size or fit additional.

 

[uksel]

yeah fair point.

the trunking being full isn't always the issue, it can be easy for a leg to be up and the clasp on the lid catch it. Plus sometimes, your not always the one who installed the trunking or ran the cables in.

like i say, i can see your point, but i dont think it is against the regs

 

[Darkwood]

yeah fair point.

the trunking being full isn't always the issue, it can be easy for a leg to be up and the clasp on the lid catch it. Plus sometimes, your not always the one who installed the trunking or ran the cables in.

like i say, i can see your point, but i dont think it is against the regs

Regs can be read in many ways but for the ceiling grid issue i still say it deffo a no no and its from experience i talk as local councils, clark of electrical works, building control etc in 3 different districts by me all express its against regs, as mentioned before i only was allowed to run a specially designed cable on the grid which looped in and out of some grid fittings with plug and socket assemblies, think they were thorlux and the flex had a toughened sheath which resisted the sharp edges of the grid.

 

[wattsup]

if its earthed, if its wired correctly no problem...if potato fields in lincolnshire were to become live because of your stupiditity then its your fault :

 

[uksel]

Regs can be read in many ways but for the ceiling grid issue i still say it deffo a no no and its from experience i talk as local councils, clark of electrical works, building control etc in 3 different districts by me all express its against regs, as mentioned before i only was allowed to run a specially designed cable on the grid which looped in and out of some grid fittings with plug and socket assemblies, think they were thorlux and the flex had a toughened sheath which resisted the sharp edges of the grid.

i take your point, and your examples are obviously more than valid. but this can just be down to company policy.

a good company will have the policy of 'full containment' and obviously running loose cables over suspended ceiling tiles would be a no-no for standard practice. but as a working example, the flex running from a klik multi-way box to each fitting above a suspended ceiling would immediately negate this being a requirement of the regs, which is really why i find it hard to accept this as a non-compliance.

and when it comes down to a court of law and compliance with legislation, could you get raped over it??

i wouldn't have thought so - then it could also be about how good your lawyer is

 

[Darkwood]

I think we all realise that these things never enter a court room but regarding flex cables - yes ive seen them laid across a few tiles but the same rules do apply and when your company starts working on local council buildings then all these bad practices could be costly as well as loosing future contracts as the clark of electrical will inspect and demand corrective actions, its also often seen that the flex enters the modular fittings 600/600 etc through a grommet then straight into the termination block - again this is a no no as the cable must be glanded or clamped to ensure any movement dosnt act directly on the connections.
I personally suspend the cables of any circuits neatly in all round band and flex to fittings likewise, this is acceptable and quick and easy compared to tray or trunking this way in future jobs it all can be wired and 'klicked' up ready for ceiling grid to be installed and just leaving the fittings to drop in and connect after.
Running cables across the grids is in itself poor workmanship and bad practice irrespective of any regs that may or may not cover this matter.
As mentioned already building control, clark of electrical works and the likewise wont allow this in any region i know of and just because your site may not be under such scrutiny dosn't make it any the more acceptable.

 

[uksel]

again agreeing with your last comment

but the OP is in a predicament over confronting his boss regarding compliance with the regs. regardless of bad worksmanship (which we all readily agree upon), he's asked advice, and i didnt think the advice of 'it's against the regs don't do it' was solid enough to encourage his actions.

it's a tough world out there and the OP isn't considered a competant person as of yet, he is basically labour

i think let it be said this is bad practice and condone those who disagree, but... don't put yourself out of a job where the case is arguable. if you're on your own do it right, if it's under his instruction it's his problem

don't go giving yourself a 1 way ticket to the dole office for an argument that might not hold water

 

[Darkwood]

again agreeing with your last comment

but the OP is in a predicament over confronting his boss regarding compliance with the regs. regardless of bad worksmanship (which we all readily agree upon), he's asked advice, and i didnt think the advice of 'it's against the regs don't do it' was solid enough to encourage his actions.

it's a tough world out there and the OP isn't considered a competant person as of yet, he is basically labour

i think let it be said this is bad practice and condone those who disagree, but... don't put yourself out of a job where the case is arguable. if you're on your own do it right, if it's under his instruction it's his problem

don't go giving yourself a 1 way ticket to the dole office for an argument that might not hold water

Agree with you on this also did get lost in the chit chat and digressed from the original post (as is easily done) but im sure it will give him food for thought.

 

[uksel]

he's probably cacking it now, won't know which way to turn

i think the best advise anyone can give in the current economin climate is

the guy you are working for doesn't seem to be all that, come here and ask any questions you like

but... keep your head down and get your papers, they'll earn you more between now and retirement than your hurt pride for doing a **** job cos 'he said so'

you did the right thing by coming here though, which suggests you are off to a good start

 

[baldsparkies]

No way should the cables rest on the ceiling grid. They should deffo be supported. At very least cable tied to the suspension points. But ideally ran in a wire basket, then hardwired to the fittings. I appreciate that costings can form part of the equation. But you have to draw the line somewhere. And considering the low cost of wire basket its not much to ask for. Price no object!! full containment with plug ins and flexed to the fittings.
As said, lifting ceiling grids in the real world will tell you a different story, but that doesnt make it right.

 

[housefull]

Thats what i thought.
Just been to get the breakers, didn't realise how expensive RCBos are!!!

Iv decided to change the single phase CU to a duel split load, that way i can run the cables up how i like and put the switch drops in the stud wall. If he doesn't want to pay for that then will he want to see loads of tube!!

cheers

Well just been there again and had another look above the susspended ceiling, clipping up there is going to be inpossible, its all criss cross metal work!

Dont think i wanna just throw cable above there, gonna have to have a think on that one!