£4000 for taking on an apprentice- discuss

[DC-backfrom the past]

hi the part that is important here is the wording

"I am a member of a professional body"

thats the bit I interpret to be napit selct or Nic … unless you can point me in the direction of somewhere else .
Which would be great ,as I have been refused work by landlords as I'm not select or nic.
I read the guidelines as you had to be a member of a professional body by law ,to carry out the work and if thats not the case, a lot of landlords think that also, ##
despite me having all the other attributes:; being time served , relevant certificates and insurance etc

my apologies I may have interpreted it incorrectly and as a result even knocked back work because I didn't tick all the boxes as above .
the other ironic thing which I disagree with is the training
its select and nic that run the training courses and only give discount for members
but you need the courses to become a member !!!!!!

re plumbers don't start me on that subject : some think they are painter decorators /electricians and joiners all in one at times . occasionally they connect pipes

 

[JK-Electrical]

hi the part that is important here is the wording

"I am a member of a professional body"

thats the bit I interpret to be napit selct or Nic … unless you can point me in the direction of somewhere else .
Which would be great ,as I have been refused work by landlords as I'm not select or nic.
I read the guidelines as you had to be a member of a professional body by law ,to carry out the work and if thats not the case, a lot of landlords think that also, ##
despite me having all the other attributes:; being time served , relevant certificates and insurance etc

my apologies I may have interpreted it incorrectly and as a result even knocked back work because I didn't tick all the boxes as above .
the other ironic thing which I disagree with is the training
its select and nic that run the training courses and only give discount for members
but you need the courses to become a member !!!!!!

re plumbers don't start me on that subject : some think they are painter decorators /electricians and joiners all in one at times . occasionally they connect pipes

I have absolutely no idea what the "I am a member of a professional body" bit entails. SJIB perhaps? If it means SELECT, NICEIC or NAPIT, then the rest of the checklist would be redundant by default as competency would have already been proven by virtue of you being a member of SELECT, NICEIC or NAPIT. This bit makes no sense to me either.

As for training, the alternative to the training courses provided by SELECT and NICEIC is, of course, the City & Guilds course in inspection and testing. But at £950.00, you would be much better-off doing the SELECT course which, even at full-price, is £498.00. You could always join SELECT as a probationary member and be able to do the course at the member's discounted rate of £300.00 thus saving yourself close on £200.00. This will cover the cost of your probationary membership! When you get the qualification you can then apply for full membership. Sorted.

 

[pirate]

JK, I agree with a lot you have said. As everyone on here knows, I am not a qualified electrician, but could theoretically carry out EICRs for private landlords as a "competent person"...however I do not in any way consider myself such. On the other hand, I do carry out PA Testing on my own let properties and on those of other landlords. I am competent that far, so I think it's fair to say I would not be happy having the possibility of a criminal conviction for doing such work "unregistered".
Then again, there are plenty sticker jockeys out there in PAT-world...

 

[pirate]

JK, I agree with a lot you have said. As everyone on here knows, I am not a qualified electrician, but could theoretically carry out EICRs for private landlords as a "competent person"...however I do not in any way consider myself such. On the other hand, I do carry out PA Testing on my own let properties and on those of other landlords. I am competent that far, so I think it's fair to say I would not be happy having the possibility of a criminal conviction for doing such work "unregistered".
Then again, there are plenty sticker jockeys out there in PAT-world...

 

[pirate]

sorry, I am repeating myself!

 

[Adam W]

Apprenticeships have suffered a bad reputation in the past, from being the fall back option for the kids who messed about at school to more recently non-apprenticeships in entry level jobs like retail or customer services where they seem to be used as an umbrella to protect employers from having to pay the minimum wage.

I can't imagine school leavers will look forward to a 4 year trade apprenticeship only to be lumped in with stereotypically disadvantaged people who can't get a job doing anything else.

 

[JK-Electrical]

JK, I agree with a lot you have said. As everyone on here knows, I am not a qualified electrician, but could theoretically carry out EICRs for private landlords as a "competent person"...however I do not in any way consider myself such. On the other hand, I do carry out PA Testing on my own let properties and on those of other landlords. I am competent that far, so I think it's fair to say I would not be happy having the possibility of a criminal conviction for doing such work "unregistered".
Then again, there are plenty sticker jockeys out there in PAT-world...

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from carrying-out EICRs for private landlords as the onus for ensuring competency lies exclusively with them. You don't have prove your competency unless you are asked to do so by a landlord. But if you were do one on any of your own properties you being the landlord would not be able to satisfy the landlord that you are competent lol.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

I have absolutely no idea what the "I am a member of a professional body" bit entails. SJIB perhaps? If it means SELECT, NICEIC or NAPIT, then the rest of the checklist would be redundant by default as competency would have already been proven by virtue of you being a member of SELECT, NICEIC or NAPIT. This bit makes no sense to me either.

possibly and English version of these bodies ?

also re the course Ive completed the testing and inspection and pat courses to city and guilds level. Not that you need to pass any exam for pat
the courses I meant were the health and safety ecs …
which are required to join sjb ...only select and nic run them ...again if you join then you get it cheaper ...its wrong ..

anyway re the apprenticeships . the citb used to sponsor full years apprenticeships . Thats how I got my first year paid for many years ago . years two and three were subject to conditions. I was lucky to get employed by a company.
They should look at that type of sponsorship again.
If you were a sole trader and taking on an apprentice meant you only had to cover their national insurance and pension for three to four years. That would help small business to flourish and people would get trained.

 

[pirate]

JK, you are right, btw! Thing is, I can't legally sue myself (Salomon V Salomon)!
However, I don't actually have the expertise to carry out an EICR, so won't be doing one anytime soon...however, oddly enough that doesn't seem to dissuade some gangsters!
I know what I can do, and wouldn't charge anyone for doing what I know I am not competent to do...but I happily charge for what I do, when I am confident that I can stand up in court and justify my actions.
Do a proper job for which you are trained or otherwise competent, or walk away...
Sadly, the cowboys see it differently, and always will. Thus, enforcing legislation has little effect on those who are determined to make money via scamming.
Each year I attend a national landlords convention where there is always discussion about bad landlords...oddly enough, the folks who attend are all proper landlords, registered and keen to show that they are just that. The real problem lies with those who do not attend...they are not registered, never will be, and won't stick their heads above the parapet. I will say no more other than that those who are absent are very noticeable, if you get my drift...
Ach, b**ger it! I'm too old to bother with this! Do a job, properly, and get paid! Everyone else...F**k off!

 

[Pete999]

JK, you are right, btw! Thing is, I can't legally sue myself (Salomon V Salomon)!
However, I don't actually have the expertise to carry out an EICR, so won't be doing one anytime soon...however, oddly enough that doesn't seem to dissuade some gangsters!
I know what I can do, and wouldn't charge anyone for doing what I know I am not competent to do...but I happily charge for what I do, when I am confident that I can stand up in court and justify my actions.
Do a proper job for which you are trained or otherwise competent, or walk away...
Sadly, the cowboys see it differently, and always will. Thus, enforcing legislation has little effect on those who are determined to make money via scamming.
Each year I attend a national landlords convention where there is always discussion about bad landlords...oddly enough, the folks who attend are all proper landlords, registered and keen to show that they are just that. The real problem lies with those who do not attend...they are not registered, never will be, and won't stick their heads above the parapet. I will say no more other than that those who are absent are very noticeable, if you get my drift...
Ach, b**ger it! I'm too old to bother with this! Do a job, properly, and get paid! Everyone else...F**k off!

If you don't have the expertise to do EICR, what do you have the expertise to do and charge customers for your work? only your profile doesn't provide any information.

 

[pirate]

Ah, sorry Pete...I have done nothing on my profile.
I do PA Testing, Legionella Risk Assessment, domestic wiring installation (no CU connection), all plumbing installations except domestic gas, and in 40 years I have never had a failure, to my knowledge, including marine leisure, gas and electrical...I am "time served" in those areas, if you like...there's no AA/RAC at sea!
I do what I like, enjoy and am competent to carry out. I have been offered weekend work by several electricians and plumbers, but am a "leisure installer" only...apart from my recent work for the Men's Shed charity. Last Saturday, the proper electrician came to the Shed to connect the first 8 circuits I installed (btw, thanks to all of you on here who gave me so much assistance with that!) and nothing went BANG!
He was happy with all the tests, and will return when I have completed the remaining circuits, to connect and test those.
So, in summary, I do what I can do and am comfortable with, and nothing more. I never pretend to be able to do more than I know, and learn something every day...that's how I see life, and I don't have to prove anything, or earn a living from such work, so I have no axe to grind.
(Who stole my axe???)

 

[JK-Electrical]

possibly and English version of these bodies ?

also re the course Ive completed the testing and inspection and pat courses to city and guilds level. Not that you need to pass any exam for pat
the courses I meant were the health and safety ecs …
which are required to join sjb ...only select and nic run them ...again if you join then you get it cheaper ...its wrong ..

anyway re the apprenticeships . the citb used to sponsor full years apprenticeships . Thats how I got my first year paid for many years ago . years two and three were subject to conditions. I was lucky to get employed by a company.
They should look at that type of sponsorship again.
If you were a sole trader and taking on an apprentice meant you only had to cover their national insurance and pension for three to four years. That would help small business to flourish and people would get trained.

Although I'm not quite sure how modern apprenticeships work, my undertanding is that they are college-based. The apprentice secures a college place then tries to find a business who'll take him on. I receive enquiries from young hopefuls on average once a week, always via e-mail or even text messages, but NEVER by letter or telephone. As I already have an apprentice (he's an adult trainee, and damn good he is too!) I'm not interested in further recruitment. Indeed, when my current apprentice qualifies as an electrician, I'll go hire another adult trainee. I'm simply not interested in recruiting young boys straight out of school.

There hasn't been a single application that I've received where I've detected even as a much of a glimmer of enthusiasm on the applicant's part, or an indication of what they have to offer my business. All I see in such applications is atrocious spelling and even worse grammar. Even with a bribe of four grand, I'm still not interested.

 

[JK-Electrical]

If you don't have the expertise to do EICR, what do you have the expertise to do and charge customers for your work? only your profile doesn't provide any information.

He's very good at looting, plundering, teaching parrots to talk and making people walk the plank.

 

[123]

There hasn't been a single application that I've received where I've detected even as a much of a glimmer of enthusiasm on the applicant's part, or an indication of what they have to offer my business. All I see in such applications is atrocious spelling and even worse grammar. Even with a bribe of four grand, I'm still not interested.

Agree with that. For others I get the feeling it's their mum's emailing me with the CV/enquiry about apprenticeships. Either that or they don't have an email address and had to use their mums email address - which in either case isn't good as they are either not interested enough to look for themselves or not sensible enough to create an email address to look for work.

Also had a couple of plonkers that have emailed with email addresses that are borderline sectarian. I dunno what the careers advice department at schools are doing these days.

 

[pirate]

Pete, I have found and entered details on my Profile Page!
Sadly, it rejected my initial 3,200 character epistle, so i have whittled it down to 120...
It's boring!