A bit 'P' ed off!

[SiWarren]

There is nothing legally stopping you going and working in a domestic environment now...however, should something go wrong, then you will need a convincing story in front of the beak.

In the mean time, you could get your PL insurance and go and work in the domestic market right now and sall yourself an electrician.

Yooj

If I were to go self employed, and something did go wrong, would my lack of qualifications and training go heavily against me as oppsed to that of qualified 17th ed spark?

Will I need to get any work I have done tested and signed off by 2391 qualified? including non notifiable jobs i.e spurs or light changes / repairs?

 

[Mac]

My opinion is that the Part P is a stealth tax brought in by the government to rob any trade that needs to do any sort of electrics in a domestic dwelling,wheter that be a spark,plumber,tiler or kitchen fitterWhen you apply to one of these scheme providers,they are all government registered.No more said and now they plan to change the regs yet again,more money in there back pockets

 

[Yooj]

If I were to go self employed, and something did go wrong, would my lack of qualifications and training go heavily against me as oppsed to that of qualified 17th ed spark?

Yes...however, nothing stopping you getting your 2382-10 outside of your current course...that would help a lot.

Will I need to get any work I have done tested and signed off by 2391 qualified? including non notifiable jobs i.e spurs or light changes / repairs?

non-notifiable...not really, as you would do the testing and inspection.

Notifiable...if you are not registered with a scheme, then Building Control would manage the I&T as part of the BC fees.

Furthermore, there is nothing stopping you joining the NICEIC/Elecsa or whoever's DI scheme...check out their websites...This will allow you to self certify your own work, including notifiable jobs.

Yooj

 

[not clever]

this 5 day course is that the Domestic Electrical Installer incl. Part P - EAL Level 2 Certificate for Domestic Electrical Installers?

Does that mean they dont need to do the assement when registering with some one like nic etc?
When I signed up to mine I got this included, not done it yet. But I hav always thought it a bit weird someone who has hardly any electrical knowledge can do this yet a fully qualified spark not to mention with many years experience have no advance over them.

This sort of course gives you sod all except a basic grounding in domestic electrical work (although the link below says some 3p teaching is given ).............you still have to undertake an assessment with a P scheme operator if or when you pass the course, all it gives is a note to say you have been fleeced of a wedge at some college/school & can now do an assessment each year for £500 but still not know what micc is let alone terminate it in a domestic setting .... . I love the calls from 5 day sparks " I'm adding a few sockets in an old council house & I've got some wired cable could you take a look for me" KEEEEEEEEEEEEERrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrching

Part P EAL certificate for the domestic electrical installer


NOTE: I have nothing against anybody who does a 5 day course (do get a tad miffed when DI's are lumped in the same category though even if time served), I know some who have taken this route & are very good at what they do, but they know their limits & are under no illusions that they are the bottom of the sparking pile when it comes to know how.

 

[andyb]

Nobody has been complaining about having to do their qualifications. My entire point is that people are doing their qualifications, over years, learning the in's and outs of a cats a#@, meanwhile the guy next door has just completed a 5 day course which included exam time and is legally out there doing work and earning a nice wage. Surely that cant be right, or good for the tradesman taking the correct route or the consumer who as far as they are aware has a fully qualified and fully trained electrician doing work on there home.......

I am however complaining about the lack of qualifications and experience that some folk seem to have. Anyone could be doing this course, and surely in 5 days isnt going to learn enough.

I agree, but this is nothing new. I can assure you there were non or under qualified people out there long before part p that were undercutting qualified contentious electricians.

My opinion is that the Part P is a stealth tax brought in by the government to rob any trade that needs to do any sort of electrics in a domestic dwelling,wheter that be a spark,plumber,tiler or kitchen fitterWhen you apply to one of these scheme providers,they are all government registered.No more said and now they plan to change the regs yet again,more money in there back pockets

Mac you may be right but in my experiance part p has brought me more work and also loads of add on to work i'm allready doing.

Part p has a lot lot wrong with it, mainly the ridicules defined scope. But I would not like to go back to absolutely no control.

 

[Mac]

I agree, but this is nothing new. I can assure you there were non or under qualified people out there long before part p that were undercutting qualified contentious electricians.



Mac you may be right but in my experiance part p has brought me more work and also loads of add on to work i'm allready doing.

Part p has a lot lot wrong with it, mainly the ridicules defined scope. But I would not like to go back to absolutely no control.

Sorry mate,last post on this,who would you rather do electrical work on your house,a spark with 30 years experience that does all types of electrics or the 45 minute wonder passed by an assessor

 

[hotXbun]

Sorry mate,last post on this,who would you rather do electrical work on your house,a spark with 30 years experience that does all types of electrics or the 45 minute wonder passed by an assessor

Or maybe .... a sparks with loads of experience in the domestic market who might just get himself qualified as 'competent' so he can feel competent!

Come on you lot. You are not being entirely fair! I employed 50 building employees at one point and one thing you could always count on when it comes to electricians, they always the snooty ones!

Let's be clear about one thing, there will always be bad electricians irrespective of how they became qualified.... it's got nothing to do with competency and everything to do with behaviour. I well remember the lazy good for nothing apprentices one had to suffer for such a prolonged time. Just think how refreshing it is that now all you need do is put up with them for a maximum of 5 days lol

If the system says I am now qualified to carry out electrical work as outlined by Part P of the Building Regulations, I welcome the opportunity.

hmmmmmmmmmm, perhaps I should turn a blind eye to all those apparent irregularities I seem to come across after yet another 'competent' electrician has failed to comply .....

 

[ANT68]

Read this thread with interest, I have not served a Electrical Apprenticeship, but returned to night school over 3 years and gained my 2330 level 2 and 3.I have since got my 17th edition, 2392 initial verification,currently trawling through the 2391 for one night a week for the next ten weeks and have passed my Elecsa assessment.In all, this has taken me around 5 years as My main employment is in Rail as a Mech/Elec Engineerand (I have served a Mechanical Apprenticeship).

The questions I would like answered are can I call myself a Electrician and how much practical work do you need to be competant?
many thanks

 

[SiWarren]

Read this thread with interest, I have not served a Electrical Apprenticeship, but returned to night school over 3 years and gained my 2330 level 2 and 3.I have since got my 17th edition, 2392 initial verification,currently trawling through the 2391 for one night a week for the next ten weeks and have passed my Elecsa assessment.In all, this has taken me around 5 years as My main employment is in Rail as a Mech/Elec Engineerand (I have served a Mechanical Apprenticeship).

The questions I would like answered are can I call myself a Electrician and how much practical work do you need to be competant?
many thanks

When you have your 2391 you are classed as an 'approved' electrician. my lectrurers say after a couple of years after quallifying and working then you are classed as 'competent'. have you had to do a full 17th ed course? I was told because of 2330, we could do a short 17ed course - ie 1 day .........

 

[Risteard]

When you have your 2391 you are classed as an 'approved' electrician. my lectrurers say after a couple of years after quallifying and working then you are classed as 'competent'. have you had to do a full 17th ed course? I was told because of 2330, we could do a short 17ed course - ie 1 day .........

Approved Electrician is a JIB Grade. It requires a Level 3 Technical Certificate, AM2, NVQ Level 3 and C&G 2391. It also requires the holder to have held JIB Electrician Grading for at least two years prior to gaining the Grade. A valid ECS (Electrotechnical Certification Scheme) Health & Safety certificate is also required, or a valid exemption.

Electrician Grade is as above but does not require C&G 2391.

As for "Competent", surely you should be "Competent" upon completing your Apprenticeship as this is the whole purpose of it. Indeed when signing off the NVQ Portfolio of Evidence your assessor signs that you are "Competent" (as opposed to "Not yet competent").

 

[SiWarren]

As for "Competent", surely you should be "Competent" upon completing your Apprenticeship as this is the whole purpose of it. Indeed when signing off the NVQ Portfolio of Evidence your assessor signs that you are "Competent" (as opposed to "Not yet competent").

It was regarding Ant68 who asked the question, he has not undertaken an apprenticeship, or an NVQ. I agree with you that once NVQ portfolio is signed off then you are classed as competent. I understand that until NVQ and AM2 you can only work as a 'mate' is this right?

 

[dixon9]

An old friend of mine who is a plumber has a website. On his website I noticed he was undertaking electrical work Inc. re-wires and changing 3036 fuse boards to new boards with MCB's etc.

When I asked him how, he said that he had done a 5 day part P course.
I challenged him over this as i am currently studying level 3 City & Guilds 2330 and not able to do this.


Is he right? can anyone do a 5 day course and call themselves electricians?
I hope not, it really undermines the trade.

He may not even be Part-P registered. He would have had to be assessed after completing the course - doing the course alone does not make him Part-P.

 

[Des 56]

Read this thread with interest, I have not served a Electrical Apprenticeship, but returned to night school over 3 years and gained my 2330 level 2 and 3.I have since got my 17th edition, 2392 initial verification,currently trawling through the 2391 for one night a week for the next ten weeks and have passed my Elecsa assessment.In all, this has taken me around 5 years as My main employment is in Rail as a Mech/Elec Engineerand (I have served a Mechanical Apprenticeship).

The questions I would like answered are can I call myself a Electrician and how much practical work do you need to be competant?
many thanks

Anyone can call themselves an electrician
There is no criteria that says you are now an electrician

There is a person who has competence in electrical work,this can be a very diverse and vastly diiffering occupation and someone could be competent at domestic installation but not have a clue about commercial or industrial
There are people who specialise in maintenance who may not have competence in installation of any branch
There are installation people who do not have a clue about maintenance

You can obtain qualifications and experience that may be aceptable to different organisations or bodies and be accepted by your fellow sparks as such,but in the ned you and you only are the person who knows if you can call yourself a genuine electrician depending on the level or sector that you work in

You are at the least as competent as elecsa requires an electrician to be for the level that they register you for
Perhaps other levels or sectors may require different or more experience or qualification meaning you may not have that level of competence to call yourself an electrician at that level,but that title applies to all these sectors (examples only ,not meaning you ort any individual)
So in anutshell I would say that it is a personal decision to call yourself Electrician and has little to do with an industry standard

 

[Risteard]

It was regarding Ant68 who asked the question, he has not undertaken an apprenticeship, or an NVQ. I agree with you that once NVQ portfolio is signed off then you are classed as competent. I understand that until NVQ and AM2 you can only work as a 'mate' is this right?

Sorry I should have read his post!

Before your NVQ is out of the way, you are classed as "Apprentice". I believe there may also be a "Trainee" classification for those not undertaking an Apprenticeship. But if applying for a card otherwise you would probably get a Labourer's card as you suggest - I'm not entirely sure what cards they issue under what circumstances for non-Apprentices without an NVQ.

 

[kung]

Sorry mate,last post on this,who would you rather do electrical work on your house,a spark with 30 years experience that does all types of electrics or the 45 minute wonder passed by an assessor

Id rather i did it !

By the way i have heard of a guy who did pass in 45 mins !

Just seen an ad for gas safe on DAVE channel didnt see the part p one must have missed it !

Think everyone needs to dig at the unregisterd unqualified diyers undercutting everyone ! the average domestic installer spends around £5k and most are good ! this forum is for everyone not for having a pop at domestic installers ! we can as qualified (time served) sparks install/rewire etc a hospital/football stadium/shopping mall etc etc without any probs where as the domestic installer will only be covered for domestics thats why we do the 5yr route ! every trade apart from gas trade has unqualified people working in it as well although there are also cowboy gas workers ! I dont care who does what regarding legit work if they take the time to train and pay the randsom and lets face it domestics arnt that hard all i will say is i do think its an insult to time served qualified sparks to have to pay money and be assessed to do domestics ! thats the joke part ! as if we'd fail ? i thought i would be exempt but the con is aimed at us as well ! a fully qualified spark is a fully qualified spark and time served ! dont that mean anything to them ! we should be exempt ! it should only be applicable to competent diyers who are safe with house bashing but also think it should be more weeks and have faultfinding as well thats where most get in deep water.
Regards
Kung.