Adding socket on to kitchen ring-no rcd

[Chris]

Hi all,

I was asked today to add 2 extra sockets on to an existing kitchen ring, however the board is an old wylex with the push in MCBs so no rcd protection. To add the extra sockets would it require A board change/rcd isolater?

Thanks

 

[Deuce]

Out of interest..
Do the regs at present apply only to CU enclosures? I'm thinking we have a portable machine with a plastic IP rated enclosure, which contains 3x RCD's and a 2-3 MCBs on each of them. This arrangement is because the incoming supply is 3 phase, and the phases split into each RCD then onwards via MCBs rated to the various single phase bits of kit they supply (pumps/motor valves/transformers etc).

If it does apply, when did this change happen roughly? The machine was designed about 5 years ago so not sure if it would be covered or not.

In case anyone was wondering why we went for the plastic enclosure, it's because our kit is often temporarily in damp areas or even outdoors in rain (normally not powered up but needs to be transported by HIAB truck, so not covered to protect from rain/road spray. I'm not sure I would trust a metal enclosure to sit in damp areas for weeks on end and then get sprayed with salty road water on the way back home... Might not last that long.

 

[Midwest]

Reg 421.1.201 applies to domestic properties, thought you supplied electrical devices to that underwater dance thing?

Interesting guidance about the plastic RCD enclosure. The advice I got (Elecsa) a while back, was more unhelpfully vague. See if I can locate it.

 

[Risteard]

You dont class an rcd as switchgear then? I dont agree with that you are complying with current regs in that scenario!

He didn't say it wasn't switchgear. That doesn't mean that it's a similar switchgear assembly to a distribution board though, which is what the Regulation actually states. It doesn't provide overcurrent protection so isn't similar.

 

[Midwest]

He didn't say it wasn't switchgear. That doesn't mean that it's a similar switchgear assembly to a distribution board though, which is what the Regulation actually states. It doesn't provide overcurrent protection so isn't similar.

In fairness, me and a lot of others were of the same opinion, and the guidance I received went in a similar vein. To some the reg is clear as the days long, but IMO its not, and they have had the opportunity to make it clearer.

Doesn't make sense, that two pieces of similar equipment or enclosures can be installed side by side, one has to be metal the other doesn't.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

What doesn’t make sense to me, is:
BS7671 wants us to change plastic CUs for metal.
The DNOs are changing metal cut outs for plastic.

 

[Midwest]

Guess we are not as clever as the DNO's.

Some ones gonna say they don't have to blah blah blah ……………...and they have to work blah blah blah..……..

Incidentally Spin, I caught your cracking a joke the other night. As a help there's some naughty little similes below. Go on, you know you want to.

 

[Risteard]

You dont class an rcd as switchgear then? I dont agree with that you are complying with current regs in that scenario!

He didn't say it wasn't switchgear. That doesn't mean that it's a similar switchgear assembly to a distribution board though, which is what the Regulation actually states. It doesn't provide overcurrent protection so isn't similar.

In fairness, me and a lot of others were of the same opinion, and the guidance I received went in a similar vein. To some the reg is clear as the days long, but IMO its not, and they have had the opportunity to make it clearer.

Doesn't make sense, that two pieces of similar equipment or enclosures can be installed side by side, one has to be metal the other doesn't.

I absolutely agree that the Regulation is somewhat vague allowing more than one interpretation of it. What I have suggested should merely be construed as my opinion on the matter.

 

[Nebu1a]

Now does that mean for a TT system can we fit a 100 ma type S RCD in its own insulated enlosure before the consumer unit?

I always find it strange that the DNO is allowed to fit an isolator in a plastic enclosure after the meter.

 

[Midwest]

I absolutely agree that the Regulation is somewhat vague allowing more than one interpretation of it. What I have suggested should merely be construed as my opinion on the matter.

Thats fair play, your giving your opinion.

Thing is, it should given be as opinion based, but some members (present company accepted) think their opinion, should be taken as without doubt or as fact, or challenged.

 

[Ian1981]

Talking to 2 Niceic area assessors at a tech talk in December, they also advised that you can use a plastic switch fuse for meter tails over 3 meters as it’s not similar switchgear assemblies to BSEN 61439-3.
That Mr Darren Staniforth also agreed but he’ll never admit to it
So we will inevitably have some guys agreeing with this and some guys disagreeing.
MAKE THE DAM REGULATION CLEAR.
There’s always amendment 1 to look forward to.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think I may have mentioned once or twice in the past, that switch fuses use a different standard to DB/CUs.
That doesn’t stop manufacturers from producing switch fuse which comply with BS EN 61439-3.

 

[Ian1981]

Some manufacturers jumped on the chance to cash in, stating that you must use a non combustible switch fuse ( wylex pushed this notion when the regulation first came out) so installers inevitably believed that it has to be non combustible ( non combustible cabinet ignored for now)

 

[magnoliafan89]

So if you wanted to fit an rcd before a consumer unit would you take the tails from the cut out into the incoming side of an rcd then take tails from the rcd into the incoming main switch?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So if you wanted to fit an rcd before a consumer unit would you take the tails from the cut out into the incoming side of an rcd then take tails from the rcd into the incoming main switch?

Yes.

 

[Midwest]

MAKE THE DAM REGULATION CLEAR.
There’s always amendment 1 to look forward to.

When the 18th draft was open for public comment, I made an observation about this particular regulation, highlighting similar comments made here, examples, conflicting guidance etc. I not naïve enough to think the committee would take any notice of me, but there were comments from several others.

Clearly the observations were dismissed. I wonder sometimes, if the committee likes to keep certain things vague, perhaps it would make life too problematic for them.