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Discuss adding test procedures to the NEC code in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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well Ive joined the NEC forum and sent a post about adding a testing procedure section to the code book
heres the post.

I know that testing procedures are taught in apprenticeship but Ive found it to be severely lacking in clarity and tends to be an issue with many apprentices not being taught properly.
I would like to see a section in the codes that covers proper testing procedures and standard practices as well as proper documentation of results.
there should be no question on what procedures to follow and how to carry them out

we'll see if it flies or goes over like a lead balloon
 
I'm not intending to continue these epic length posts, save to say that your understanding of main earthing and main bonding along with LP systems leaves a lot to be desired.


Yes, coming from the same person who makes claims with certainty regarding NEC and American installs which every American electrican knows is absolutely untrue. That speaks a lot just by itself.

I dont know all that much about BS7671 or British installs, so I never make any solid claims. Imagine how I would look on this forum if I did. Rather I just keep an open mind.



You are also blindly accepting that the supply from a network operator be it TN-S or TNC-S is always going to have an adequate Ze value, and even if it hasn't, bonding it to a properties extraneous metal service pipes will solve the problem, ...it won't!!

In theory I am, but then again I know it will in 99.99% of American services. I know My neutral is intact. I know the short circuit values. I know its size. I know the distance to the transformer in most cases. If I call POCO for equipment AIC (short circuit) ratings saying a phase to neutral short will produce 18,000 amperes in a 200amp 120/208Y commercial service do I really need to factor in Z? 18,000 amperers will trip the main instantaneously, and will be more than enough current for branch breakers.

At the branch level, we use full size earth wires. Even if I extend a 3.31mm2 (12 gauge) circuit 350 feet to the point voltage drop is over 5%, I can calculate the short circuit current knowing the impedance of the conductors. A phase to ground short all the way at the end of a 350 foot run will produce several hundred amps. An American 20amp breaker trips in 1/60 of a second at 200amps, 10/60 of a second at 100amps. The fault is removed very quickly.

Because of our over engineered earth wires and bonding, even when the fault is happening the voltage rise is well below 80 volts to remote earth.


And again, even if POCOs neutral broke during the fault (it wont), even though every metal surface will be 120 volts to remote earth, all metal within the structure will be zero volts because its bonded together. Floor to plumbing, zero volts. Oven to fridge, zero volts.

I suggest two things to you, firstly purchase a Earth Loop Impedance tester and test those incoming supplies to properties, i think you could well be surprised at the values it shows you, for both Ze and Zs.


This I will do, anyways its nice to know if the EGC is intact at the branch level.





Study the functions and reasons for main bonding and Equipotential Zones, as well as the importance of N-E connections to TNC-S service supplies. Have you ever heard of PME (Protective Multiple Earth) earthing system?? It's basically a TNC-S earthing supply, but has multiple N-E points along it's length from the TX. On an overhead supply system that would generally be a N-E link with an earth electrode ever 3rd or 4th pole.... A typical PME earth in the UK has an accepted max Ze of 0.35 ohms, while a TN-S earth has a typical max of 0.80 ohms. (note, these figures are given as typical by the DNO'S, and not set in stone)

I'm going to try and attach a copy of the UK's Regulations, it's not the current copy, but more than good enough for you to understand some of the points we have been discussing.

Will, do, always willing to learn :)




(Can't upload the pdf maybe if you give me your email address via the PM system here i can send it to you direct...)

I will send over an Email address.
 
I think i have previously explained my mistake and apologised. Though for the life of me, i can't understand the thinking behind not accepting a stable sub 1 ohm TT system, that makes no logical sense to me at all. As a matter of interest, what supply earthing system do you provide for mobile caravan sites and petrol (gas) stations??

It's all well and good you coming out with these above figures but in reality you have no means of KNOWING if the basis of your calculations are correct, If you don't possess the test equipment to confirm them. Faults on the service network, such as loose connections etc can nullify those complying calculations, whether you have full size neutrals or not (and full sized neutrals are not considered as being ''over'' engineered). On your 3 wire single phase systems i would think it's an absolute must having a full sized neutral.

An earth loop impedance tester will give you the actual Ze (PEFC) values, as well as the L-N and L-L PSCC values available at service head along with Zs values available anywhere else such as circuits and any sub distribution boards (Zdb)....

My statements above are based on your comments about multiple N-E links achieving nothing, when in fact they can make a very big difference to a TNC-S system. along with your statement on LP system rods being of little use, when they are the main protection means for any building equipped with a LP system. If as you stated extensive damage was seen on a house with an LP system in place, then the LP system was incorrectly installed.


Anyway, PM me your email address and i'll send you a pdf of the 17th edition of BS 7671.
Maybe a good idea to look at the section covering installation testing and reporting. No disrespect, but I think that may shock every American journeyman electrician...
 
I think i have previously explained my mistake and apologised. Though for the life of me, i can't understand the thinking behind not accepting a stable sub 1 ohm TT system, that makes no logical sense to me at all.


Ok, I apologize. I see that you cleared it up. My mistake :)

I think we may have to agree to disagree. In the US its just the way we all have been taught. Never rely on ground even with a GFCI. Im not saying we are right or wrong, just the way things are. Once you are taught something its difficult to undo. I guess I am that way.



As a matter of interest, what supply earthing system do you provide for mobile caravan sites and petrol (gas) stations??


Caravans and gas stations are TN-S, but supplied by a TN-C utility. At gas stations the neutral is switched with the phases.

Basically poco provides 3 or 4 wires, they go through the meter and then a main disconnect. At the disconnect we drive 2 ground rods, and if any metal water pipes or UFERs exist we also bond those to the neutral bar. From the main disconnect a ground and neutral is brought out.



It's all well and good you coming out with these above figures but in reality you have no means of KNOWING if the basis of your calculations are correct, If you don't possess the test equipment to confirm them. Faults on the service network, such as loose connections etc can nullify those complying calculations, whether you have full size neutrals or not (and full sized neutrals are not considered as being ''over'' engineered). On your 3 wire single phase systems i would think it's an absolute must having a full sized neutral.

In terms of knowing you are correct, because its never 'field verified'. you have a point though, if the neutral broke coming from the POCO, a fault within the structure will never clear unless metal water pipes existed coming into the structure.

An earth loop impedance tester will give you the actual Ze (PEFC) values, as well as the L-N and L-L PSCC values available at service head along with Zs values available anywhere else such as circuits and any sub distribution boards (Zdb)....

Any good links on a tester? I can see these of being of value.


My statements above are based on your comments about multiple N-E links achieving nothing, when in fact they can make a very big difference to a TNC-S system. along with your statement on LP system rods being of little use, when they are the main protection means for any building equipped with a LP system. If as you stated extensive damage was seen on a house with an LP system in place, then the LP system was incorrectly installed.


LP is a valid concern. Unfortunately the NEC isnt to much concerned about it :(


Anyway, PM me your email address and i'll send you a pdf of the 17th edition of BS 7671.
Maybe a good idea to look at the section covering installation testing and reporting. No disrespect, but I think that may shock every American journeyman electrician...
[/QUOTE]


No disrespect taken :) We may not agree on everything, but let me tell you how many new installations were never to code from day one. Open grounds, crossed circuits, loose connections, ect ect. I have seen it all. Testing would be a good idea in the NEC.

FWIW when AFCIs came out they caught a lot of loose connections and ground faults in brand new homes. I dont agree with the arc fault logic, but the 30 milli amp RCD function built inside caught a lot of errors.
 
A
ny good links on a tester? I can see these of being of value.

As you are in the US, try looking at Megger ELI meters as i know they have a large presence over there. They will probably have a model to cater for your voltage bands and systems. Also try looking at what Fluke has to offer in the US.

No good buying a unit from Europe as the nominal voltage differs and the no trip function of 15mA for our 30mA RCD's will trip your 6mA GFCI's.

Also, make sure the unit is suitable for the L-L voltages you will be likely to be testing if this function is available on the model of choice....
 

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