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Discuss adiabatic equation in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

Sincere apologies i have obviously misunderstood the o.p. altogether. I clearly see where you and Telectrix are now both coming from. I got lost along the way with the interpretation of the reg and earthing systems. Sorry :)
 
Hi guys, been considering this myself. Say an installation has a new consumer unit fitted and 25mm tails and 16mm earth installed. 6mm bonding left in place.
you would say the bonding is undersized, but if you can calculate the earth only needs to be say 11mm then the 6mm bonding is now ok ?. Is this how you read it ? Or because they have a 16mm earth you now need a 10mm bond. Thanks
 
Say an installation has a new consumer unit fitted and 25mm tails and 16mm earth installed. 6mm bonding left in place.
A lot of tails are replaced with 25 unnecessarily so, in actual fact 10mm earthing may still be ok.

you would say the bonding is undersized, but if you can calculate the earth only needs to be say 11mm then the 6mm bonding is now ok ?. Is this how you read it ?
Yes.

Or because they have a 16mm earth you now need a 10mm bond.
No. Bonding has to be half the required size.

This for TNS don't forget.

TNC-S is different - use the table.
 
It's best to go by the table of selection but this is only to ensure pme requirements are met


Tns/ tt systems are allowed much smaller earthing conductors

Why do you think they have such small earth tails from the main sheath on a tns incoming cable
 
All,

Back to the question?

From my reading of Regs page 167,

544.1.1 Except where PME conditions apply, a main protective bonding conductor shall have a cross-sectional
area not less than half the cross-sectional area required for the earthing conductor of the installation and not less
than 6 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. The cross-sectional area need not exceed 25 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] if the bonding conductor is of copper or a
cross-sectional area affording equivalent conductance in other metals
.

Except for highway power supplies and street furniture, where PME conditions apply the main protective bonding
conductor shall be selected in accordance with the neutral conductor of the supply and Table 54.8
.
[IMHO: I think that this sentence would be clearer if it began 'Where PME conditions ... '.]

...

Therefore, Table 54.8 applies only to PME, the minimum cross-section of a protective bonding conductor for a TN-S system is 'half the cross-sectional area required for the earthing conductor'.

Interpreting Regs page 160:

543.1.1 The cross-sectional area of every protective conductor, other than a protective bonding conductor, shall be:

(i) calculated in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3, or

(ii) selected in accordance with Regulation 543.1.4.

Calculation in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3 is necessary if the choice of cross-sectional area of the line conductors
has been determined by considerations of short-circuit current and if the earth fault current is expected to be less
than the short-circuit current.

...

In this example there is a significant difference in fault currents so the regulations state that 'Calculation in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3 is necessary'.

If the other option in 543.1.1, 'selection', is used then according to Table 54.7 on page 162 in the Regs the earth conductor must be the next larger standard cross-sectional area up from the line conductor cross-sectional area, S, divided by 2. S / 2 is 47.5 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] and this accords with the installed earth conductor cross-sectional area of 50 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. Using 'selection' for the earthing conductor and Reg 544.1.1 on page 167 results in a minimum cross-sectional area for the protective bonding conductor of 50 / 2 or 25 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. According to 'selection' the protective bonding conductor at 16 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] is undersized.

Returning then to determine the required size of the earthing conductor using calculation; on page 160 of the Regs:

543.1.3 The cross-sectional area, where calculated, shall be not less than the value determined by the
following formula or shall be obtained by reference to BS7454.

S = (I[SUP]2[/SUP] t)[SUP]0.5[/SUP] / k

...

I, the current flowing under earth fault conditions, is 1780 Amperes. The constant k is given in the Tables on page 161 of the Regs; assuming Table 54.2 is valid and that the earth conductor is copper insulated with 70 deg c rated thermoplastic insulation, k = 143. What though is t? One person has got this far and through a wrong assumption fell at the last but one hurdle! This requires a further regulation reference, Regs page 54:

411.3.2.3 In a TN system, a disconnection time not exceeding 5 s is permitted for a distribution circuit and for a circuit not covered by Regulation 411.3.2.2.

At this point in the system it is a 'distribution circuit', not a 'final circuit not exceeding 32 A.' to which 'Table 41.1 - Maximum disconnection times' refers.

Using I = 1780 A, t = 5 secs and k = 143; the minimum earthing conductor cross-sectional area required is 27.8 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. Therefore applying Reg 544.1.1, the minimum protective bonding conductor cross-sectional area required is 13.9 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. The installation would therefore be satisfactory with an earthing conductor of 35 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] and the current protective bonding conductor cross-sectional area of 16 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] is correct.

As this is my first posting and I only completed my C&G 17[SUP]th[/SUP] Ed course recently I am open to challenges ... or a slap on the back and a pint of good quality cider like Scrumpy Jack will do!

Yours Aye

GB
 
nice post. only 1 error, and that is your use of 5 secs in the adiabatic. you correctly assume a max. disconnection tome of 5 secs, but for the adiabatic, you need to refer to time/current graphs to determine the disconnection time of the fuse at the measured fault current. at 1780A a 100A BS1361 fuse will disconnect in 0.1 secs, so thast is the value you shouls use in the adiabatic.
 
All,

Back to the question?

From my reading of Regs page 167,

544.1.1 Except where PME conditions apply, a main protective bonding conductor shall have a cross-sectional
area not less than half the cross-sectional area required for the earthing conductor of the installation and not less
than 6 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. The cross-sectional area need not exceed 25 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] if the bonding conductor is of copper or a
cross-sectional area affording equivalent conductance in other metals
.

Except for highway power supplies and street furniture, where PME conditions apply the main protective bonding
conductor shall be selected in accordance with the neutral conductor of the supply and Table 54.8
.
[IMHO: I think that this sentence would be clearer if it began 'Where PME conditions ... '.]

...

Therefore, Table 54.8 applies only to PME, the minimum cross-section of a protective bonding conductor for a TN-S system is 'half the cross-sectional area required for the earthing conductor'.

Interpreting Regs page 160:

543.1.1 The cross-sectional area of every protective conductor, other than a protective bonding conductor, shall be:

(i) calculated in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3, or

(ii) selected in accordance with Regulation 543.1.4.

Calculation in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3 is necessary if the choice of cross-sectional area of the line conductors
has been determined by considerations of short-circuit current and if the earth fault current is expected to be less
than the short-circuit current.

...

In this example there is a significant difference in fault currents so the regulations state that 'Calculation in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3 is necessary'.

If the other option in 543.1.1, 'selection', is used then according to Table 54.7 on page 162 in the Regs the earth conductor must be the next larger standard cross-sectional area up from the line conductor cross-sectional area, S, divided by 2. S / 2 is 47.5 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] and this accords with the installed earth conductor cross-sectional area of 50 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. Using 'selection' for the earthing conductor and Reg 544.1.1 on page 167 results in a minimum cross-sectional area for the protective bonding conductor of 50 / 2 or 25 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. According to 'selection' the protective bonding conductor at 16 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] is undersized.

Returning then to determine the required size of the earthing conductor using calculation; on page 160 of the Regs:

543.1.3 The cross-sectional area, where calculated, shall be not less than the value determined by the
following formula or shall be obtained by reference to BS7454.

S = (I[SUP]2[/SUP] t)[SUP]0.5[/SUP] / k

...

I, the current flowing under earth fault conditions, is 1780 Amperes. The constant k is given in the Tables on page 161 of the Regs; assuming Table 54.2 is valid and that the earth conductor is copper insulated with 70 deg c rated thermoplastic insulation, k = 143. What though is t? One person has got this far and through a wrong assumption fell at the last but one hurdle! This requires a further regulation reference, Regs page 54:

411.3.2.3 In a TN system, a disconnection time not exceeding 5 s is permitted for a distribution circuit and for a circuit not covered by Regulation 411.3.2.2.

At this point in the system it is a 'distribution circuit', not a 'final circuit not exceeding 32 A.' to which 'Table 41.1 - Maximum disconnection times' refers.

Using I = 1780 A, t = 5 secs and k = 143; the minimum earthing conductor cross-sectional area required is 27.8 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. Therefore applying Reg 544.1.1, the minimum protective bonding conductor cross-sectional area required is 13.9 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. The installation would therefore be satisfactory with an earthing conductor of 35 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] and the current protective bonding conductor cross-sectional area of 16 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] is correct.

As this is my first posting and I only completed my C&G 17[SUP]th[/SUP] Ed course recently I am open to challenges ... or a slap on the back and a pint of good quality cider like Scrumpy Jack will do!

Yours Aye

GB

well done chap! good work, consider this a big slap on the back!

like telectrix says the value should be gained from the curve on the chart
FIG 3A3(a)

200A fuse which comes in at slightly over 1sec (1700A - 1 sec)

which is amazingly 12.44mm!

if the PEFC would of been smaller (eg 1200A) the duration of time to blow the fuse would of been longer, hence a larger earthing conductor like in your 5 second calculation

which means that a 16mm bonding conductor is ok!

Rattlehead85,
i wasnt trying to be argumentative at all but this is why i asked the first question
i was not trying to 'get out of upgrading the bonding'
if i would of started jumping up and down about it being undersized and they then got a second opinion, i would of looked either very stupid or like i was trying to rip them off

either way i could of lost their future business

so its important to check

on another note; i wonder how much unnesscesary copper is wasted on 16mm main earths, 10mm bonds 25mm main conductors on 60A TNS domestic supplies

but it just looks right dont it lol!
 
nice post. only 1 error, and that is your use of 5 secs in the adiabatic. you correctly assume a max. disconnection tome of 5 secs, but for the adiabatic, you need to refer to time/current graphs to determine the disconnection time of the fuse at the measured fault current. at 1780A a 100A BS1361 fuse will disconnect in 0.1 secs, so thast is the value you shouls use in the adiabatic.

t,

Thanks for the correction; 'pride cometh before a fall'! However, BS 1361:1971 was replaced by BS 88-3:2010; the 'curves' in Regs on page 296 Fig 3A1 which cover BS 88-3 indicate ratings up to 100 A only which would be inadequate for a system that draws more than 100-150 A system. Clearly, as w probably knew all along, the only solution for a 200 A system is to be found in Regs on page 299 'Fig 3A3(a) - Fuses to BS 88-2 fuse systems E and G'. In fact, as type G fuses are only rated up to 125 A, I would expect to see a fuse to BS 88-2 type E on inspection.

Yours Aye

GB
 
All,

Back to the question?

From my reading of Regs page 167,

544.1.1 Except where PME conditions apply, a main protective bonding conductor shall have a cross-sectional
area not less than half the cross-sectional area required for the earthing conductor of the installation and not less
than 6 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. The cross-sectional area need not exceed 25 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] if the bonding conductor is of copper or a
cross-sectional area affording equivalent conductance in other metals
.

Except for highway power supplies and street furniture, where PME conditions apply the main protective bonding
conductor shall be selected in accordance with the neutral conductor of the supply and Table 54.8
.
[IMHO: I think that this sentence would be clearer if it began 'Where PME conditions ... '.]

...

Therefore, Table 54.8 applies only to PME, the minimum cross-section of a protective bonding conductor for a TN-S system is 'half the cross-sectional area required for the earthing conductor'.

Interpreting Regs page 160:

543.1.1 The cross-sectional area of every protective conductor, other than a protective bonding conductor, shall be:

(i) calculated in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3, or

(ii) selected in accordance with Regulation 543.1.4.

Calculation in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3 is necessary if the choice of cross-sectional area of the line conductors
has been determined by considerations of short-circuit current and if the earth fault current is expected to be less
than the short-circuit current.

...

In this example there is a significant difference in fault currents so the regulations state that 'Calculation in accordance with Regulation 543.1.3 is necessary'.

If the other option in 543.1.1, 'selection', is used then according to Table 54.7 on page 162 in the Regs the earth conductor must be the next larger standard cross-sectional area up from the line conductor cross-sectional area, S, divided by 2. S / 2 is 47.5 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] and this accords with the installed earth conductor cross-sectional area of 50 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. Using 'selection' for the earthing conductor and Reg 544.1.1 on page 167 results in a minimum cross-sectional area for the protective bonding conductor of 50 / 2 or 25 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. According to 'selection' the protective bonding conductor at 16 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] is undersized.

Returning then to determine the required size of the earthing conductor using calculation; on page 160 of the Regs:

543.1.3 The cross-sectional area, where calculated, shall be not less than the value determined by the
following formula or shall be obtained by reference to BS7454.

S = (I[SUP]2[/SUP] t)[SUP]0.5[/SUP] / k

...

I, the current flowing under earth fault conditions, is 1780 Amperes. The constant k is given in the Tables on page 161 of the Regs; assuming Table 54.2 is valid and that the earth conductor is copper insulated with 70 deg c rated thermoplastic insulation, k = 143. What though is t? One person has got this far and through a wrong assumption fell at the last but one hurdle! This requires a further regulation reference, Regs page 54:

411.3.2.3 In a TN system, a disconnection time not exceeding 5 s is permitted for a distribution circuit and for a circuit not covered by Regulation 411.3.2.2.

At this point in the system it is a 'distribution circuit', not a 'final circuit not exceeding 32 A.' to which 'Table 41.1 - Maximum disconnection times' refers.

Using I = 1780 A, t = 5 secs and k = 143; the minimum earthing conductor cross-sectional area required is 27.8 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. Therefore applying Reg 544.1.1, the minimum protective bonding conductor cross-sectional area required is 13.9 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. The installation would therefore be satisfactory with an earthing conductor of 35 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] and the current protective bonding conductor cross-sectional area of 16 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] is correct.

As this is my first posting and I only completed my C&G 17[SUP]th[/SUP] Ed course recently I am open to challenges ... or a slap on the back and a pint of good quality cider like Scrumpy Jack will do!

Yours Aye

GB

well done chap! good work, consider this a big slap on the back!

like telectrix says the value should be gained from the curve on the chart
FIG 3A3(a)

200A fuse which comes in at slightly over 1sec (1700A - 1 sec)

which is amazingly 12.44mm!

if the PEFC would of been smaller (eg 1200A) the duration of time to blow the fuse would of been longer, hence a larger earthing conductor like in your 5 second calculation

which means that a 16mm bonding conductor is ok!

Rattlehead85,
i wasnt trying to be argumentative at all but this is why i asked the first question
i was not trying to 'get out of upgrading the bonding'
if i would of started jumping up and down about it being undersized and they then got a second opinion, i would of looked either very stupid or like i was trying to rip them off

either way i could of lost their future business

so its important to check

on another note; i wonder how much unnesscesary copper is wasted on 16mm main earths, 10mm bonds 25mm main conductors on 60A TNS domestic supplies

but it just looks right dont it lol!
Yeah your bang on. Once again must apologise mate. Reading back over the posts i came across all wrong. The regs can be a minefield at times. At least we can get to a correct answer and all be wiser for having done so, after all that is the purpose of this forum. I shall definitely alter my stance on my EICR's a bit now. Thanks!
 
W,

Thanks for the opportunity to stretch my brain ... I do not yet have too many opportunities to work on the practical aspects of 'leccying. Clearly from that debate 10 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] main bonding condutors would be more than adequate. I have spent some time today 'playing' with MS Excel, logarithms and the Regs to see if I could improve my own accuracy in reading of the the log-log graphs. By my calculations when loaded by a 1780 A earth fault current, a 200 A fuse to BS 88-2 should 'blow' in ~0.85 seconds. This indicates a minimum main earthing conductor cross-sectional area of 11.5 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] and that for the main bonding conductor of 5.7 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. Thus 16 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] would be adequate for the earth and 6 mm[SUP]2[/SUP] for the main bonding ... might raise an eyebrow! Clearly in this case what looks good is certainly not good for the planet, the customer or our businesses. Perhaps we need to re-educate our eyes and ourselves and begin to apply a healthy dose of engineering nouse and thrift in our designs.

Thoughts?

Yours Aye

GB
 
Clearly in this case what looks good is certainly not good for the planet, the customer or our businesses. Perhaps we need to re-educate our eyes and ourselves and begin to apply a healthy dose of engineering nouse and thrift in our designs.
Well done (although you may have set off an independent-thought alert) .

I am not a 'tree-hugger' as such but replacing 16mm tails with 25mm (and related earth and bond) 'just because I do' or because of a stupid statement in a poor publication (OSG and other 'guides') is clearly a waste of resources.

Can I repeat that Table 4D1A applies to meter tails the same as it does to any other conductor.
 
<< Independent thought ... it'll never do ... won't catch on ... don't let the thought police catch me ... they're coming to take me away ... ha ha ho ho he he ... to the funny farm!

On a serious note surely it comes down to confidence and knowledge and maturity. I am a more 'mature' entrant, with strong analytical tendancies an eye for detail and serious levels of tenacity. That said a little slow of action. Whether I make a good spark in due course is anyones' guess. First I need to make some career decisions ... dive straight in or dip a few toes; who knows.

Yours Aye

GB
 

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