AFDD's (Please sign this in case your house burns down)?

[spynage]

Hi.

Just completed my yearly asssement with Stroma.

The assesor suggested I have letter made up for customers to sign to confirm they have been told about the AFDD's if they still do not want to have them fit. (Because of cost presumably)

Fine I thought, but then no. Who wants to spend £500+ on a new consumer unit only to think they have paid for half a job and that their installation is not as safe as it could be? Am I expected to tell them that they probably wont need them but it would technically be safer if they did? Or lie and say they MUST have them or lie again and tell them they won't need them?
Or say I'm not sure but they are expensive so please sign this to relieve me of responsibility?

Seems like a very unsatisfactory situation to me. Does this not undermine me as an electrician?

Looks like the electricity council understand that AFDD's and SPD's are available but they are unwilling to make installation mandatory. Aren't they passing the buck with this and pushing responibilty all the way down the line to the customer?

What do you think? Should I draw a letter up?

If I don't explain this properly to clients then I can see myself being easily undercut in price by other electricians going down the RCD only route. Surely regs should be unambiguous in this respect?

cheers

Spynage

 

[radiohead]

Thats just boiler plate based on feedback from my solicitor when I had the document reviewed. None of it’s strictly necessary but helps your case if you ever end up in a dispute.
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I can see where they are coming from, some sort of accident occurs, an engineer with a clipboard comes along and says an AFDD would have prevented the issue. The customers not wanted to pay for one but denies they were even given the option of having one fitted.

Having something in your T&Cs costs you nothing and could save a lot of anguish down the road.

I do think you are over reacting to this. You are not going to be pursued for any future events which may or may not have been prevented by a device that is NOT required and was not at the time of installation!
I have used AFDD's on one job only, and our NICEIC assessor told me not one of his other area contractors had ever used them.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

It's important however at this point to understand that the agenda for the regs is already written. Dates for the publication of Amendment 2 are already down, and meetings on Amendment 3 are now in the minds of these committee members. The draft comes out later this year, you'll have only a short time to comment on it and then they'll have 2021 to get it all sorted - and they need to not f**k this one up this time.

As for the AFDD, the word 'shall' will come into play and only domestic light circuits will really get away with not being considered necessary for protection. Same goes for AC RCDs ?

 

[radiohead]

It's important however at this point to understand that the agenda for the regs is already written. Dates for the publication of Amendment 2 are already down, and meetings on Amendment 3 are now in the minds of these committee members. The draft comes out later this year, you'll have only a short time to comment on it and then they'll have 2021 to get it all sorted - and they need to not f**k this one up this time.

As for the AFDD, the word 'shall' will come into play and only domestic light circuits will really get away with not being considered necessary for protection. Same goes for AC RCDs ?

If the regulations change then so will the advise given to clients. But at the present time nobody is going to be pursued for not fitting AFDD's, even if the place burns down assuming the current requirements of Bs7671 have been met.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

The next Stroma assessor you have will probably be someone completely different and won't even mention AFDD's. They will probably pull you up for asking the customer to sign a letter!

 

[Ian1981]

We have our annual Niceic visit in a couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see if Im pushed to see if I’m supposed to be getting clients to op out if you like of the installation AFDD’s by a covering letter, of course if he does I’ll make him wish he hadn’t.

 

[7029 dave]

Most clients will not have a clue what you are even talking about, and I can see the answers you would be getting, why ask me your the professional, how much, your just trying to rip me off.
Saw the 6amp module on test (youtube) it was rubbish didn't even trip, only on a high load current above 6amps, which kinda defeats the object.

 

[Midwest]

Not being funny, but if these AFDD's were cheaper, it wouldn't be up for discussion. After all, everyone is fitting SP's. The only surge damage I've ever seen, is when lightning struck next doors house.

 

[Spoon]

Why are they not needed?
The regs say:

421.1.7 Arc fault detection devices conforming to BS EN 62606 are recommended as a means of providing additional protection against fire caused by arc faults in AC final circuits.

If used, an AFDD shall be placed at the origin of the circuit to be protected. NOTE: Examples of where such devices can be used include:
• premises with sleeping accommodation
• locations with a risk of fire due to the nature of processed or stored materials, i.e. BE2 locations (e.g. barns woodworking shops, stores of combustible materials)
• locations with combustible constructional materials, i.e. CA2 locations (e.g. wooden buildings)
• fire propagating structures, i.e. CB2 locations
• locations with endangering of irreplaceable goods. "


Don't houses have "Sleeping accommodations"?

This was discussed a few years ago in this thread.

 

[Ian1981]

Why are they not needed?
The regs say:

421.1.7 Arc fault detection devices conforming to BS EN 62606 are recommended as a means of providing additional protection against fire caused by arc faults in AC final circuits.

If used, an AFDD shall be placed at the origin of the circuit to be protected. NOTE: Examples of where such devices can be used include:
• premises with sleeping accommodation
• locations with a risk of fire due to the nature of processed or stored materials, i.e. BE2 locations (e.g. barns woodworking shops, stores of combustible materials)
• locations with combustible constructional materials, i.e. CA2 locations (e.g. wooden buildings)
• fire propagating structures, i.e. CB2 locations
• locations with endangering of irreplaceable goods. "


Don't houses have "Sleeping accommodations"?

This was discussed a few years ago in this thread.

It’s not accommodation tho for domestic in the sense of say accommodation like a hotel.
The regulations use the word dwellings for domestic so I don’t think that the word accommodation applies, plus it’s a recommendation only and not a full blown requirement to install them.

 

[Spoon]

It’s not accommodation tho for domestic in the sense of say accommodation like a hotel.
The regulations use the word dwellings for domestic so I don’t think that the word accommodation applies

Just checked the regs. "Accommodation" is used 12 times and you are correct, it doesn't apply to houses. It does apply to caravans, leisure vehicles, mobile homes & motor caravans.

plus it’s a recommendation only and not a full blown requirement to install them.

We live in a 'blame' society. When you are up in court and they tell you the regs 'recommend' you to use them, you have to prove you have done so.

 

[Markyd]

Had my Stroma visit a few weeks ago...no mention of AFDDs

 

[Ian1981]

Just checked the regs. "Accommodation" is used 12 times and you are correct, it doesn't apply to houses. It does apply to caravans, leisure vehicles, mobile homes & motor caravans.



We live in a 'blame' society. When you are up in court and they tell you the regs 'recommend' you to use them, you have to prove you have done so.

Just checked the regs. "Accommodation" is used 12 times and you are correct, it doesn't apply to houses. It does apply to caravans, leisure vehicles, mobile homes & motor caravans.



We live in a 'blame' society. When you are up in court and they tell you the regs 'recommend' you to use them, you have to prove you have done so.

The regulations are only recommending that the designer select AFDD’s not that the client does, as a means of fire protection, as the designer they are other means to skin a cat so no I do not feel that you will have to prove anything.
They do not have to be installed at all for compliance with bs7671 so cannot be used against anyone in a court of law against a non statutory document.

As a side note I’d definitely consider installing them if DB’s and CU’s could actually have the capacity to install them and that the price was not ridiculous.
Also the fact that most are 2 module and that’s not including an rcbo into the mix.
They remain a non starter for me and I do not recommend them to a client as they are my choice whether to install or not.

 

[pc1966]

Just now they will add something like £1k to the cost of a CU change, and only a few AFDD are single-width modules (e.g. Wylex/Crabtree brand AFDD/RCBO units), so you have that extra size to deal with. And all of this for a marginal gain in safety.

In most cases the client would be better spending the extra money on a fire alarm and/or some extinguishers!

 

[Ian1981]

Just now they will add something like £1k to the cost of a CU change, and only a few AFDD are single-width modules (e.g. Wylex/Crabtree brand AFDD/RCBO units), so you have that extra size to deal with. And all of this for a marginal gain in safety.

In most cases the client would be better spending the extra money on a fire alarm and/or some extinguishers!

Or on a SPD that they might not need

 

[UNG]

If an RCD trips we have test equipment to enable us to decide whether there is a wiring fault, a connected equipment fault or it's a faulty RCD
So an AFDD trips how do we identify the cause, I had quite a long chat with one of the Megger guy's at Elex a couple of years back as the AFDD was starting to appear on the horizon, he was saying that identifying the cause would be a decision to rewire the circuit, replace the AFDD or potentially doing both all of which has a high cost for the customer. Then there is the question of the AFDD test button and how reliable it is look how often the RCD test button works but fails when tested with a meter. The case for AFDD's seems driven by the manufacturers who seem to have total belief that their AFDD's are capable of identifying all arc fault situations that could possibly occur yet there is no test equipment available that allows the electrician on the ground to prove that an AFDD protected circuit will be disconnected if an arc fault occurs

Currently I can demonstrate to a customer why their RCD or a connected circuit or a piece of connected equipment is faulty, How do or can I go to a customers premises with a tripping AFDD and not be able to do any tests and suggest a repair that has the potential to cost anything from a few hundred to a few thousand pounds after the AFDD and the wiring has been swapped because I don't have any equipment to identify the exact cause of the problem

It's a bit liking taking your car for a repair only to be told it needs a couple of ECU's when real fault is a damaged connector