Alternative [solar] suppy

[wattsup]

Thanks for that Mark
Yes I did know some pv systems can generate at night, some can even generate enough power to run the charger for the diesel backup generator. (or the charger for a mobile phone) .
Mr Millipede has just invented a new green tax on the masses.

I believe the only alternative for the energy crisis are nuclear stations, except they take 20 years to build...in the meantime windmills and glass roofs are trendy

 

[Markc]

Oh Dear! It’s a shame that journalists don’t have the same aggressive tendencies to report correctly on an item as they do to talk out of their back side! I’m afraid George Monbiot it talking crap. First the governments paper on feed in tariffs requires all supply companies to pay FiTs if they have a customer base of more than 50,000 and for those who don’t its optional. The supply company pays the FiTs but not in increase from other user’s The payment comes out of the carbon taxes they pay to the government in an off set agreement so in the chain its government money. George also states that PV works closer to the equator or somewhere like California we yes but it doesn’t then mean it does not work her. We work design into the knowledge of knowing our average solar radiation and output is calculated accordingly.

I know I’m biased as I’m fitting it and expanding on it but It does annoy me when people who know nothing about the in’s and out’s can write articles and publish them when they are just not true. The proof is in the pudding as they say. It if didn’t work our narrow minded government wouldn’t be spending on it. The reduced tariffs on other renewables reflect the life expectancy of that particular type. PV has a minimum 25 year life with no maintenance. Bio Mass boilers, heat pumps and wind turbines all require maintenance on a regular bases.

Let me also say 100% in agreement for Nuclear power. PV or any renewable is not a magic answer to our energy requirements and nothing is going to provide our energy needs without relying on Russian gas or alike like nuclear. Any renewable is only going to support our supply infrastructure.

Now I’m off to hug a Tree……!

 

[Smugley]

Mark, yes, his is not the only voice. I am reading more of this interesting debate. I am with you, in that I would like to see this scheme succeed. I want to be convinced before going ahead with an installation in my own home.

 

[wattsup]

“George Monbiot it talking crap”…maybe ?
But I think it’s reasonable to assume southern California gets more sunnier days than southern Yorkshire.
When occasionally it is warm and sunny in the UK less power is needed, lighting etc is reduced, in California more is needed to power air con systems, which are power hungry. Very few private homes in the UK have air con.
In the depths of winter over here, more power is needed but the sun ain’t shining, if that statement is wrong then he is talking crap.

It makes sense, a warm sunny climate suits pv far more than a cold damp one.
Manufactures/installers often quote peak power figures but in actual fact averaged out over the whole year are as low as 10% of that claimed.

The government do not have any money, it is our money and they very seldom spend it wisely.
If as claimed solar was so efficient over here, no subsidies, loans and incentives would be required, people would be falling over themselves to install.
I have seen one in operation.

On a new build (I installed a diesel backup generator, hangs head in shame) A solar company installed a system in the garden, the panels the size of a giant roadside placard, it took about 20% of the customers garden up.
Another guy was wiring the house, when I returned to commission the genset it was warm and sunny, August last year, I worked alongside the spark responsible for the house wiring, he said look at this…pv ammeter…130watts.
My genset gave 10Kva (sunny or not) to power essential services.
My system cost £7500

PV cost £19,500 just to power the customers laptop and associated peripherals on warm sunny days in the summer. It averaged out from March to August at 40 watts per day.
But at least this year the customer has from September last year to March this year to factor in!

 

[Markc]

Smugley.

Yes I agree I to wanted to see evidence of a PV system working and now after seeing it I know it works. I agree I’m biases but hay hoe. The evidence will come over the next couple of years when PV appears more frequent.

Wattsup.

It’s a pity you have witnessed a possibly poor system however it’s not fair to judge an entire technology on one system. I liked the fact your client was looking for more than one source of energy and from my assumption on your thread they went for three. Diesel gen set also…Hang your head in shame!!!!!! What would you reaction be if I said “and what will they do when the diesel runs out or the cost per litre is 10 fold of today’s price?” Generator wouldn’t look too attractive then.

Sunnier climates obviously I have to agree with that but its not a write of here in the UK after all the US has a PV system installed within the artic circle in Alaska (and at times their day light hours are measured in minutes!) I can’t quote on figures on this system but it stands to reason it is mostly an experimental system I would assume.

We have to cut our dependency on fossil fuels. Is PV the answer? NO nor is wind, wave or any other form of renewable solely on its own but worked in along side other technologies there is a place for them. Small scale microgeneration plants reduces demand on our weakening infrastructure and allows generation companies to obtain self generated energy to use for other customers at different peak times. Nuclear is the only long term 100% answer to sustain our future energy needs however there 20+ years away and if anyone thinks it wouldn’t be us the energy user who picks up the tab for it then good luck to ya!

The debate will run and run. I know some will never accept any renewable and see it as a money making cash cow for someone down the line and others will run out to buy the biggest system money can buy. Sceptics will always be sceptical.

As for £19,500 for PV and just able to run a laptop then I would be on the phone to the installer double quick time! For that money (Not knowing how long ago it was) I would be estimating it to be a 2.5 to 3.5Kw system possibly at a push even 4Kw…..Now that’s one big laptop!

Sorry Guys I’ve just got to post a reply to George Monbiot’s article.

Not the great green rip-off, by George | Alan Simpson | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

 

[wattsup]

Hi Mark
Yes the guy was a bit paronoid 3-supplies...but critical for power (computer) any outage would create major probs for him.
As for the future, can't argue on that point. The US army and the Brit army both use solar and wind turbines when absolutely no alternative, for coms equipment mainly, as do remote rural areas. But thats the point, if no alternative then ok.. I can't be persuaded because solar it is not viable right now.

You see mark statements like this 'I would be estimating it to be a 2.5 to 3.5Kw system possibly at a push even 4Kw…..Now that’s one big laptop!'
don't help, you are again as most installers do, quoting peak figures. It is wise not to hoodwink, the actual average output will be a fraction of that
In winter a tiny fraction of that

 

[andyb]

If your pv system is linked to the grid you can't use it as a back up supply as in the event of a power cut it will shut dowm.

I did the wiring for one 18 months ago and can tell you they do work. This was for an eco new build and the chap pays nothing for his electricty, it was also extreamly easy to wire.

 

[wattsup]

Again...give me the output what watts? I know they work, but financially they do not. It is not my argument they don't work.
You can use as backup, via battery banks, but the physics of saving the planet do not add up, re- C02 savings

 

[Markc]

I think I’m getting your point Wattsup. It’s not one of PV doesn’t work on the basis of generating energy from daylight / sunlight it’s the fact that if a specified system of say 2Kw is installed then it doesn’t necessarily means that is will generate 2Kw all of the time and the output be below that. Factually correct BUT the output return is based on Annual Yield and is to the same degree as wind. We as designers work average values into a system but it has to be graded at peak output (MMP) On a bright day a system will be at full output for the duration of that light period. Expected annual yield is how prospected FiTs payments and export payments are calculated and based on older systems already installed it is also on the low side. NASA has released surveys, which they conducted over the last 22 years giving us watts per square meter per hour (wt/mt2/day) of sunlight hitting our area by city. With this data it is a simple calculation to predict output a different times of the year, working in correction factors for angle and shading etc and inverter data the output can be estimated and again is the same as any renewable energy source. I think one of the biggest factors with PV against other renewable’s is that there is always daylight every day but not wind every day. What wind has over PV (at this time) is that it will generate at night if windy.
If you just a PV system on your roof and the only income form it was the 3p per Kwh export tariff then I whole heartedly agree it will never pay back in a reasonable time scale. But the same also has got to be said again for wind as the export tariff is exactly the same.

As for quoting peak figure I can’t see an alternative. Every thing we use electrically is based on peak figures but it doesn’t mean that these appliances use that power consumption all the time either. Take a washing machine for example, 3Kw but only when the heat element is in. I connected last year an 11Kva wind turbine for one of our customers who also considered PV from us. We didn’t install the turbine just the connection of. This turbine cost him £34K plus our bit. This also only generates 11Kva peak. The wind speed has to be 15mts per second. 10mts per second over this the auto break engages and the turbine shuts down. Wind speed down to 5mts per second and the turbine stops again so the window for generation is between 5mts and 25mts per second but only peak at 10. In our area (Norfolk) wind is proven not to work. The more north you are the better it gets and the reverse is said of PV. £34K for an 18mt garden ornament is what he calls it.