Amendment now problems later

[UNG]

So what about sampling? If we male judgements based on sampling (sockets for example), we are working to assumption, not fact. We can say it would be highly probable based on said sample, either way we aren't using fact when we sample.

We're talking potential deaths here, the fact we still have discussions on premature collapse, the retrospectiveness of regs and what not is frankly, crap.

If your engineering judgement says the place is a potential death trap for firefighters then that should be taken as such - hell; include a copy of the Rule 43 letter from Shirley Towers for reference.

Sampling is verifying a fact, the OP's comment that because it's all plastic it must be none compliant and infers that no sampling has been carried out to verify. Some of the jobs I have done 30+ years ago in PVC trunking had the cables secured internally with metal clips but without removing some of the lids to verify you would not know which is the point I was trying to make

Would we leave insitu VIR? Even through we know damn well that by now it will be life expired based on the fact "it complied at time of install"? Would we hell, we'd strongly advise it gets ripped out and replace sharpish and use regs (and EAWR) to drive the point.

If the VIR passed all the required tests how would you justify it's replacement, it's a bit like some on these forums that think 70 year old pyro is past it's best and should be replaced with the inferior FP type cable

Even if they can't rip it all out, they ought to be able to retrofit to accessible sections and at least reduce the risk

These days in some cases it is easier to demolish and new build and take the hit on the environmental impact rather than repair or refurbish

 

[cliffed]

Previous EICRs can be useful for comparison purposes, but when doing your own EICR, would it not be essential for such things as the prevention of premature collapse to be verified by inspection, wherever it needs to be applied?

As has been mentioned, it may already be in place, inside the plastic trunking.
If it is found not to be in place, then a C2 would likely be warranted.

If for any reason you're not able to inspect and verify, then an FI, as UNG suggests.

Then a follow up visit would be necessary.

Sampling is verifying a fact, the OP's comment that because it's all plastic it must be none compliant and infers that no sampling has been carried out to verify. Some of the jobs I have done 30+ years ago in PVC trunking had the cables secured internally with metal clips but without removing some of the lids to verify you would not know which is the point I was trying to make

If the VIR passed all the required tests how would you justify it's replacement, it's a bit like some on these forums that think 70 year old pyro is past it's best and should be replaced with the inferior FP type cable

These days in some cases it is easier to demolish and new build and take the hit on the environmental impact rather than repair or refurbish

Sampling took place & there are no metal fixtures inside the plastic trunking, no metal saddles on the plastic conduits.

 

[Lister1987]

If the VIR passed all the required tests how would you justify it's replacement, it's a bit like some on these forums that think 70 year old pyro is past it's best and should be replaced with the inferior FP type cable.

VIR is known to become brittle over time, there has to come a point where we say its life expired. MICC is less likely to be in such a state after the same duration of time.

Irrespective of what the poster codes it, the client could still get a second opinion either via thr poster's CPS if they're in one or if they feel they're having thier pants pulled down; trading standards under the CPFUT regulations.

Ultimately we'll all sit differently on how much a problem premature collapse is, myself I'd be that person that drives for it to get fixed and fail an install for it as I can put myself in the shoes of the family whose firefighter spouse/kin/sibling has died or been injured getting entangled in cables not properly supported.

"It'll never happen", "that's total overkill", "you can't do that", "<Insert Organisation Here> says its a C3 at worst" are the sorts of responses you'd get but I'd rather have that then something happen, seeing on the news that someone has died and knowing I could have highlighted the hazards and driven for change. I'm not saying those that don't aren't empathic, I'm saying that we all have different levels of engineering judgement and limits of what we are willing to accept.

 

[cliffed]

VIR is known to become brittle over time, there has to come a point where we say its life expired. MICC is less likely to be in such a state after the same duration of time.

Irrespective of what the poster codes it, the client could still get a second opinion either via thr poster's CPS if they're in one or if they feel they're having thier pants pulled down; trading standards under the CPFUT regulations.

Ultimately we'll all sit differently on how much a problem premature collapse is, myself I'd be that person that drives for it to get fixed and fail an install for it as I can put myself in the shoes of the family whose firefighter spouse/kin/sibling has died or been injured getting entangled in cables not properly supported.

"It'll never happen", "that's total overkill", "you can't do that", "<Insert Organisation Here> says its a C3 at worst" are the sorts of responses you'd get but I'd rather have that then something happen, seeing on the news that someone has died and knowing I could have highlighted the hazards and driven for change. I'm not saying those that don't aren't empathic, I'm saying that we all have different levels of engineering judgement and limits of what we are willing to accept.

Agree, I will talk with the estates manager & get his opinions on the Fire holding times on the suspended ceilings, & C2 the surface mount containment.
Maybe advisable to get a Fire Safety report from the Fire Officer, no doubt there will be someone whos responsible for that

 

[westward10]

Ceiling grids cannot be used as cable support. You are over thinking this getting other people involved, Code it and move on.

 

[cliffed]

Ceiling grids cannot be used as cable support. You are over thinking this getting other people involved, Code it and move on.

Think your right….it’s definitely been missed for the last 15 years +

 

[Lister1987]

Agree, I will talk with the estates manager & get his opinions on the Fire holding times on the suspended ceilings, & C2 the surface mount containment.
Maybe advisable to get a Fire Safety report from the Fire Officer, no doubt there will be someone whos responsible for that

Bare in mind thr premature collapse reg is not about how long a material will resist fire (30 60 90 120min) but keeping thr hazard controlled until all firefighting activity has ceased; not just evacuation, which tends to be the bit people focus on, leaving out the remaining firefighting activity such as damping down, investigation and any rescue element which will extend beyond the 30 60 90 120 times people focus on

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Bare in mind thr premature collapse reg is not about how long a material will resist fire (30 60 90 120min) but keeping thr hazard controlled until all firefighting activity has ceased; not just evacuation, which tends to be the bit people focus on, leaving out the remaining firefighting activity such as damping down, investigation and any rescue element which will extend beyond the 30 60 90 120 times people focus on

Where did you get this info from @Lister1987 ? (Not saying it's incorrect, just I hadn't heard this take on the regulation before, and it differs from my own interpretation)

 

[Lister1987]

Where did you get this info from @Lister1987 ? (Not saying it's incorrect, just I hadn't heard this take on the regulation before, and it differs from my own interpretation)