Are you allowed to Switch off and Lock off a dangerous imstallation?

Pete999

Pete999

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As an ex Civil servant (electrician) I was given authority that allowed me to switch off and lock off dangerous electrical installations at HMG site world wide.
What are the rules in the general public area, example " you are called to do an EICR and its so awful and dangerous, and the customer /client won't agree to any recommendations of work required to put the installation in compliance with BS7671 and Safety concerns, are you allowed to do the same as I was as a Civil Servant?
 
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Flanders said:
We had a situation last year with a Take away with very unsafe electrics, code 1s every where,after getting advice all we could do was hand deliver a danger notice recommending them to turn the power off until it was made safe that they signed for .We could not lock off the power, the best we could do was turn it off , but the customer could just turn it back on.
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Stupid situation then?
 
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In your case Pete, you had been given certain respocibilties, with I suspect certain checks & balances.

As I see, anybody else other than a DNO, could take certain liberties, and disconnect supplies for nefarious reasons. Not all are as truthful and sincere, as respected members here.
 
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As above, I suspect the only one who has legal authority to cut power without the owner's consent is the DNO.

In Pete's case it was more one of organisational authority as the civil service appointed him and, due to his qualifications & experience, assigned that authority over their own premises.

In the more general case all that an electrician can do, beyond providing clear written notice of the seriousness of the situation, would be to report it to the HSE if they genuinely believed the notice would be ignored.

It is an interesting point, but one I hope never to find myself having to deal with!
 
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Flanders said:
We had a situation last year with a Take away with very unsafe electrics, code 1s every where,after getting advice all we could do was hand deliver a danger notice recommending them to turn the power off until it was made safe that they signed for .We could not lock off the power, the best we could do was turn it off , but the customer could just turn it back on.
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Midwest said:
In your case Pete, you had been given certain respocibilties, with I suspect certain checks & balances.

As I see, anybody else other than a DNO, could take certain liberties, and disconnect supplies for nefarious reasons. Not all are as truthful and sincere, as respected members here.
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Do you not find that a bad situation? after all you would have been the last person touch that particular installation. could be an interesting court case, don't you think? or are there wider things I haven't thought about? discuss if you feel like it.
 
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Pete999 said:
Do you not find that a bad situation? after all you would have been the last person touch that particular installation. could be an interesting court case, don't you think? or are there wider things I haven't thought about? discuss if you feel like it.
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I agree.

It is not a position I ever want to find myself put in, but I guess the best "we" (as in folks here) can do is to discuss and outline what can be done legally and morally, and how to make the best of the situation should we find ourself in it :(
 
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pc1966 said:
I agree.

It is not a position I ever want to find myself put in, but I guess the best "we" (as in folks here) can do is to discuss and outline what can be done legally and morally, and how to make the best of the situation should we find ourself in it :(
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Agree but how many times have you been put in the cross hairs.
 
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my actions would be to report to customer and issue a danger notice., having turned off any unsafe circuits or parts of the install. knowing that the customer could then switch back on, I'd report it to the DNO, who do have the authority to disconnect.
 
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Pete999 said:
Do you not find that a bad situation? after all you would have been the last person touch that particular installation. could be an interesting court case, don't you think? or are there wider things I haven't thought about? discuss if you feel like it.
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Well firstly 'We' have no powers to disconnect electrical power to a property, in the circumstances suggested.

If you did, then someone mind find that disproportionate, and you could find yourself in court. I understand what you are saying, but electricians are not part of the law enforcement in this country. You can only report what you find, whether its is to the property owner or local authorities.
 
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Midwest said:
Well firstly 'We' have no powers to disconnect electrical power to a property, in the circumstances suggested.

If you did, then someone mind find that disproportionate, and you could find yourself in court. I understand what you are saying, but electricians are not part of the law enforcement in this country. You can only report what you find, whether its is to the property owner or local authorities.
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Been hauled upstairs to face some snotty erk asking "why did you leave so and so without a supply" during your visit some good answers that shouldn't be printed ensued, soon shut the cretins up.
 
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Of course there is the moral aspect of this to consider. If someone died following my departure from the premises, how would I feel? Could I/should I have done more? I would say we have a moral duty to make safe any C1 clear and present danger items, even if it's just simply applying a temporary cover of some sort to exposed live parts.
 
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I don't see any simple answer or solution, and suspect if there was it would have already been done.

The problem with giving blanket authority is how it can and would be abused. Just look at some of the jokes of EICRs that get posted here from time to time done by the drive-by folks who seek to profit from follow on work and it is clear how it would be abused.

Making good any C1 as far as practical and/or switching off specific circuits if not otherwise possible is something you can and should do, but ultimately it has to be with the owner/occupier's consent. Most folk will cooperate to make things safe and organise repair.

But there will be some who don't. And the issue is really how to deal with them?

For now I think (but don't know, maybe someone does) that the only legal route we have specifically to deal with this is to report it to the HSE but that is probably not a quick road to forcing a sensible course of action. But at least it puts them on notice that they will be investigated should anything happen, and are not going to be able to deny knowledge of it.
 
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Midwest said:
So what would you suggest would be the guidelines for disconnection?
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Well Middy if the install is unsafe in your opinion, and the person responsible won't take your professional advice, wouldn't it be, as you are the Competent Person, that was last person with hands on the install be deemed responsible for said install in a court of Law, how will that situation be Pollicised by his Lordship the Judge, I have no answer to that question, just posting for opinions, no other interest as I'm retired, a point for discussion, no one else interested except me and you mate and a few others, until the brown stuff hits the fan, then it will be debated further I expect.
 
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loz2754 said:
Of course there is the moral aspect of this to consider. If someone died following my departure from the premises, how would I feel? Could I/should I have done more? I would say we have a moral duty to make safe any C1 clear and present danger items, even if it's just simply applying a temporary cover of some sort to exposed live parts.
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A Bad feeling, no doubt, but what if a person fell down the stairs and broke their neck in the middle of the night because of no light?
Produce the correct paperwork and notice to cover your back.

I was once called out to an old mcb CU problem with the front cover completely melted away and still in use. There was a 5 or 6 inch diameter hole in it, all blacked and everything open. He asked me how much to change it and he'd phone me later to get it sorted. Never got back in touch. What can you do?
 
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The only regulations I can think of that could be used to disconnect an installation or parts of it would be the ESQCR 2002 regs then it comes down to who has the authority to use them

When connecting an installation to a supply the electrician has to ensure that it is safe to connect it under the ESQCR regs so if an installation becomes unsafe who can legitimately and legally disconnect it
 
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In my previous role as a LOLER examiner we could only advise of immediate defects that posed danger to health. We would get a signature from the person in charge of the equipment and took a copy, we could also inform the enforcing authority if the situation was imminently dangerous.
Some clients gave the authority to isolate equipment but it was unusual.
I have never worked as a domestic electrician but if I was the last competent person to view a dangerous installation I would feel very uncomfortable leaving without doing my very best to make the situation as safe as practically possible (and I would certainly cover my arse) the competent trained person has a duty of care

Just my opinion
 
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Let’s remember, most of the time we have already isolated the circuit(s) that we later find out are dangerous.
If it is locked off to prevent injury whilst being worked on, I would not be removing the lock until it was safe to do so.

Nobody can force me to energise something I think is a danger to life.


If the customer doesn’t want me to make it safe then I will give them a danger notice and the key to the lock.
 
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Pete999

Pete999

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If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
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Are you allowed to Switch off and Lock off a dangerous imstallation?
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