Are you sure its 43.3p? DECC say otherwise

[dansk]

Me too, i suspect they will.

 

[flamefix]

DECC warns firms not to promote higher tariffs
We have received a large number of enquiries from both STA members and members of the public asking what the situation is with the court case and what tariff rates will apply to current and future installations. So below you will find a brief summary of the situation.

The Court of Appeal has not granted DECC permission for a further appeal, but DECC is seeking permission directly from the Supreme Court and has 28 days in which to do so. Were they granted leave to appeal and the appeal was successful (and it could take up to one year before the final outcome is known) they could still legislate to apply new tariffs from the 12 December 2011 reference date. Hence DECC is warning firms not to promote the higher tariffs in the period from 12[SUP]th[/SUP] March 2011 to 3rd March 2012 as these cannot be guaranteed.


Salient point is this I suspect..

"but DECC is seeking permission directly from the Supreme Court and has 28 days in which to do so." -they'll take their time appealing then? Because only scummers will sell on the basis the government loses and if they take the 28 days to appeal and lose it leaves no time to install for those that sell honestly.

 

[dansk]

Salient point is this I suspect..

"but DECC is seeking permission directly from the Supreme Court and has 28 days in which to do so." -they'll take their time appealing then? Because only scummers will sell on the basis the government loses and if they take the 28 days to appeal and lose it leaves no time to install for those that sell honestly.

Correctomundo

 

[pwboston]

if you look in the daily mail, a company has a very large advert stating the 43p tariff is back on, no mention at all of the 21p tariff.

 

[powervan]

i went to job TODAY first job since MAD DAYS chap wants to take a punt on getting 43.3p simple job and first time ive done it at 21p aswell as good old 43.3p go to be ONEST i dont think i would sell many at 21p! its gonna get nasty if the 43.3p dont stand as yes there out there FLOGGING at 43.3p morals or money i no how i sleep at nite! suppliers and companies are going for it and prob shut up shop soon after!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kenny james]

43p for 25years for people who installed before 12th December 2011, if you got the install after 12th December you will get the 43p up until April 2012 when it drops to 21p

thats about right vernam616 thats the last thing i had heard!!!

 

[mdovey]

Actually, thinking it through I'm coming to the conclusion that legally the current FIT is 43p, and DECC is on legally dubious ground to tell anyone not to sell at that rate, or to insist that any installation after 12 Dec will receive 21p after April until the appeal at the Supreme Court succeeds or fails.

Whilst DECC have announced an intention to change the FIT, Parliament needs to pass an ammendment to the "Standard Conditions of Electricity Supply Licenses" before any change is legally enacted. Until then the FIT is legally 43p. At present, parliament has not passed any such change.

DECC are planning to put a proposal to parliament changing the FIT for installations after the 3/3 however this has not yet been passed by parliament. Even when this is passed by parliament, legally the FIT for installations before the 3/3 will remain 43p.

DECC are blocked from introducing any change to the license which would introduce any change to the FIT for installations before the 3/3 by the High Court and the Court of Appeal. As such the FIT for those installations will legally remain 43p and legally, they should expect to receive 43p even after 1 April.

If DECC wins the appeal at the Supreme Court then they have stated that they will introduce legislation to retrospectively change the FIT for installations after the 12/12 and the 3/3 and presumably recover any overpayments retrospectively so incurred (there is still a possibility that parliament would reject the change). But DECC's intent to appeal doesn't change the fact that until such retrospective legislation is actually passed, the legal situation as determined by the Electricity Supply Licenses will remain that the FIT for installs before the 3/3 is 43p.

So anyone selling at the 43p rate now is selling at the rate defined in the current legislation as per the "Standard Conditions of Electricity Supply Licenses". It is a little difficult to accuse someone of miss- selling for selling at a rate which is in black and white in the current statute books! If DECC did win the appeal, any claims of miss-selling would be entirely due to the retrospective nature of the amendment that DECC has stated that it would then introduce to the electricity supply license. That would make any case of miss-selling legally very messy to resolve - which is precisely why retrospective legislation is generally seen as a very bad idea, and why four judges so far have refused to allow it.

P.S. the above analysis is from a logician, not a lawyer!

 

[SolarCity]

my supplier sold 5000 JA and 1500 LG panels after the announcment, some knows something i dont, or jumped the gun.

edit: also to conirm Am I selling at 43p or 21p? - Solar Power Portal

They're jumping the gun. I just hope the customers are aware of what they're getting in to.

I'll be honest - I HAVE to work. But I won't sell at 43.3p. It's not my risk to take.

The fact that unscrupulous (or understandably misinformed) companies are advertising 43.3p and taking loads of work depresses me greatly.

 

[SolarCity]

Mdovey, what you say makes sense and I'm sure we've all considered it and I've no doubt a lot of installers are following through on that idea.

 

[mdovey]

Mdovey, what you say makes sense and I'm sure we've all considered it and I've no doubt a lot of installers are following through on that idea.

I should qualify that I'm not condoning selling at 43p (certainly not without a big disclaimer to make sure that the customer is aware of the risk this may drop), just highlighting what a mess DECC has made (not that it needs highlighting). Although for DECC to advise anyone not to sell at 43p is flying close to contempt of court.

I suppose a way of viewing it might be

Installations before 12/12: FIT of 43p guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years
Installations between 12/12 and 3/3: FIT of 43p, but not guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years, but may drop to 21p (adjusted for inflatation)
Installations after 3/3: FIT of 21p guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years

 

[SolarCity]

As far as I can see, whenever the supreme court ruling is head, we should have 6 weeks of 43.3p anyway.

If not, do solar firms not have a case to claim against the government for loss of earnings?

 

[mdovey]

If not, do solar firms not have a case to claim against the government for loss of earnings?

If the supreme court appeals fails, then an argument could be made that DECC's continued threat of (by then clearly illegal) retrospective legislation artificially depressed the market between 12/12 and 3/3 - it could be an interesting class action to watch!

 

[SRE]

I should qualify that I'm not condoning selling at 43p (certainly not without a big disclaimer to make sure that the customer is aware of the risk this may drop), just highlighting what a mess DECC has made (not that it needs highlighting). Although for DECC to advise anyone not to sell at 43p is flying close to contempt of court.

I suppose a way of viewing it might be

Installations before 12/12: FIT of 43p guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years
Installations between 12/12 and 3/3: FIT of 43p, but not guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years, but may drop to 21p (adjusted for inflatation)
Installations after 3/3: FIT of 21p guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years

I like and accept your logic but couldn't in all conscience sell at 43p even with a disclaimer.

I suspect the legal argument if you did this would be around the fact that the government clearly indicated that there would be an appeal and regardless of whether this would be successful there is a chance that the Fit could be reduced to 21p.

I guess some of the nationals with legal clout have got their disclaimers sorted out but for the little guys I think it leaves us morally bankrupt and potentially legally liable in the unlikely situation that the government wins the appeal.

To be honest - I think the government have outsmarted the industry. None of my customers are buying at 43p in fact since Wednesday it's actually been more difficult to sell because of the confusion. How on earth do you explain that it's 43p now, could be 21p later but you won't know until you've committed yourself and had the installation done which rate it will be. I sound like a cowboy installer :cuss:

 

[TedM]

Whilst DECC have announced an intention to change the FIT, Parliament needs to pass an ammendment to the "Standard Conditions of Electricity Supply Licenses" before any change is legally enacted. Until then the FIT is legally 43p. At present, parliament has not passed any such change.

DECC are planning to put a proposal to parliament changing the FIT for installations after the 3/3 however this has not yet been passed by parliament. Even when this is passed by parliament, legally the FIT for installations before the 3/3 will remain 43p.

Actually what happens is that once the draft of changes to the Lincese are submitted to Parliament by DECC both the House of Commons and the House of Lords have 40 days in which to reject the proposal. If they don't do this then Huhne can go ahead. There is no requirement for them to expressly vote to approve the changes.

 

[moggy1968]

How do people think they will get 10% of the installation price back from a company that won't even be in existance when the appeal is finally held? They will have shut their doors and moved to thei villa well before then.