Automatic Board Change?

[Crosswire]

Anyone know of a reg that says 3036 fuse boards automatically have to be upgraded?

I think 'no', but other sparks have said otherwise........

Thoughts pls....

 

[Des 56]

http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...s/49387-rewirable-fuses-old-wylex-boards.html

A few opinions here

 

[robsparky1975]

utter rubbish,they dont,unless that is they look distressed like any other item of equiptment.

 

[Knobhead]

Here we go again! Old is bad, new is good. If it’s not showing any sign of stress and was installed to the then regulations, leave it alone.

Or are you siding with the rip off wide boys terrorising customers in to having work done.

 

[tony mc]

As long as they are still performing the job that they were inteded to do and are safely doing so no problem.

 

[fredrico]

As long as everything is bonded aswell.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

If it aint broken.......dont fix it............!

 

[Knobhead]

If it aint broken.......dont fix it............!

Ah, but it’s old and therefore not legal if you listen to the flyboys terror tactics.
A visual check will reveal most internal faults.
Come on, Wylex for their day they were the best we had, there wasn’t a lot of choice really, MEM I detested. The introduction of BS1361 fuse carriers was a step forward, the push button type B even better.

I was asked by friend to install a board he had bought in Germany, IEC60269 Diazed fuses. “It is from my homeland it will be good”. I refused point blank. I’ve hated the damned things ever since and I’ve worked on lots of gear fitted with them.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Anyone know of a reg that says 3036 fuse boards automatically have to be upgraded?

I think 'no', but other sparks have said otherwise........

Thoughts pls....

Why would Bs7671 give maximum Zs limits for 3036 fuses if it was not permitted to use them?......does anyone actually read the regulations before spouting this nonsense?

 

[mogga]

recently Iv had a couple where Wylex where the fuse cover has been missing ,broken and have decided to recomend replacement given the gap between bottom of cover and bottom of fuse bases /busbar Seems a shame tho as these c.u.s have lots of room and nice clear connections unlike some of the new cruddy type c.u.s

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Some of the Wylex boards have the carcase made from wood.
The NICEIC view this as being unsafe, as wood is combustible.
I guess they don't know that you can set light to plastic.

 

[telectrix]

not to mention the fumes off burning plastic.

 

[Mr.Si]

The NICEIC view this as being unsafe, as wood is combustible.
I guess they don't know that you can set light to plastic.

Why can't the NICEIC just agree with the regs and not try stipulating their own ideas?

If it's not in BS7671 or the EAWR, It has little pulling power with me, unless it's a non electrical reg.

 

[jedisparks]

Obviously it depends on the situation. If someone asks you " I have a re-wireable fusebox, does it need changing" Then the answer is no.....Unless, are they having alterations and additions to their installation? Do these alterations require RCD protection? Then quite possibly a board change is the most practical and economic way to provide compliance.

I think it's jumping the gun to assume that if someone is advising a board change, then they are trying to force people to have work done that they don't need. Each situation is different and should be assesed on it's individual merits.

Another way to approach it is to say something like "No, your fusebox dosen't have to be changed, it isn't illegal, but the modern consumer units offer a higher degree of protection and are simpler to operate".

No forcing, no lying.

 

[roukel01]

If the board is protecting sockets that can be used outdoors, then there is an argument that they require RCD protection. (best practice guide backs this up also) usually the easiest way is to swap the board.

 

[Paul.M]

When customers ask me if their old 3036 cu needs changing after an EICR and everything is ok I explain it like this:-

It's like having a classic car with no ABS, seat belts, side impact bars. Ford for example would not be able to manufacture that car now without the new up dated safety laws but there is nothing stopping you from driving it today if it passes a mot (eicr).

You can have a modern cu with all the new up dated rcds and mcbs but that's your choice. Don't let anybody tell you that it needs changing just because its old.

 

[jedisparks]

If the board is protecting sockets that can be used outdoors, then there is an argument that they require RCD protection. (best practice guide backs this up also) usually the easiest way is to swap the board.

Yes, another possible reason for advising a board change there. BS3036 fuses are still a recognised means of protection of course, but each job assesd on it's merits. Then options presented to client. There's nothing wrong with that, surely?

 

[Paul.M]

Must admit I agree with Roukel, I would recommend a stand alone rcd 2 way cu or rcd socket for outdoors use.

 

[jedisparks]

When customers ask me if their old 3036 cu needs changing after an EICR and everything is ok I explain it like this:-

It's like having a classic car with no ABS, seat belts, side impact bars. Ford for example would not be able to manufacture that car now without the new up dated safety laws but there is nothing stopping you from driving it today if it passes a mot (eicr).

You can have a modern cu with all the new up dated rcds and mcbs but that's your choice. Don't let anybody tell you that it needs changing just because its old.

Yep I agree, to say just "It needs changing because it's old" is wrong.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Socket-outlets used to supply mobile equipment outdoors can be protected by simply using an RCD socket.
Many of these are actually 10mA, which may be considered safer than using a 30mA RCD at the board.

 

[roukel01]

Socket-outlets used to supply mobile equipment outdoors can be protected by simply using an RCD socket.
Many of these are actually 10mA, which may be considered safer than using a 30mA RCD at the board.

The general thought is that any socket downstairs could be used outdoors, putting RCD sockets all over the ground floor isn;t really an option.

 

[Paul.M]

The general thought is that any socket downstairs could be used outdoors, putting RCD sockets all over the ground floor isn;t really an option.

I ask which socket is normally used for outdoors equipment. Majority of the time its the one in the kitchen next to the door, just change that one and inform home owner to use that one only for o/s use.

 

[roukel01]

I ask which socket is normally used for outdoors equipment. Majority of the time its the one in the kitchen next to the door, just change that one and inform home owner to use that one only for o/s use.

Thats not gonna happen is it?

 

[Paul.M]

Thats not gonna happen is it?

Ok fair enough it really depends on the house layout.

Alternatively you could spur off the ring and install an IP55 rcd socket outside. Easier to use, designed for that sole purpose and cheaper than a cu change. Although it still won't stop them from plugging in an extention lead into the none rcd ring?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The general thought is that any socket downstairs could be used outdoors, putting RCD sockets all over the ground floor isn;t really an option.

There has never been a requirement for "any socket downstairs could be used outdoors" to be RCD protected.
The wording in the 17th has been changed specifically to deal with this misconception.
It used to be in the 16th, that any socket-outlet that may reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors shall be provided with 30mA RCD protection.
It was found that this requirement was being used for socket-outlets that would not reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors, and in some cases this requirement was being used for equipment that was not even portable.
The requirement in the 17th, is that mobile equipment used outdoors shall be provided with 30mA RCD protection.
As such any socket-outlet that is not being used to supply mobile equipment outdoors, does not require 30mA RCD protection.
In most domestic installations, the distinction is moot, as all socket-outlets intended for general use by ordinary persons, now require 30mA RCD protection.
The distinction is really only relevent where a PIR/EICR is being conducted.
As such it would affect which code you applied.
A lack of 30mA RCD protection to socket-outlets would warrent a code 4/C3, whereas a lack of 30mA RCD protection for socket-outlets used to supply mobile equipment outdoors would warrent a code 2/C2.

 

[Engineer54]

Some of the Wylex boards have the carcase made from wood.
The NICEIC view this as being unsafe, as wood is combustible.
I guess they don't know that you can set light to plastic.

That has to be one of the biggest Myths out there, ...the Wylex ''Wooden Carcase'' CUs need changing because they can catch fire!! These were the ones with the bakelite type fronts and covers, before they changed to plastic...

In all my years in the Electrical industry, i've never seen or known, of or even heard of one of these old wylex 3036 CU's wood carcase ever catching fire. They just DON'T!! ...The wood is a highly seasoned and treated hard wood, you can't even purposely set fire to them easily. Bung on a fire, and they will be the last bits of any wood to burn!!

Now on the other hand, how many Plastic CUs have we seen reduced to molten blobs on the floor?? lol!!!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I've always wondered how they can get away with making fire doors out of wood, considering just how flamable wood is.

 

[roukel01]

There has never been a requirement for "any socket downstairs could be used outdoors" to be RCD protected.
The wording in the 17th has been changed specifically to deal with this misconception.
It used to be in the 16th, that any socket-outlet that may reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors shall be provided with 30mA RCD protection.
It was found that this requirement was being used for socket-outlets that would not reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors, and in some cases this requirement was being used for equipment that was not even portable.
The requirement in the 17th, is that mobile equipment used outdoors shall be provided with 30mA RCD protection.
As such any socket-outlet that is not being used to supply mobile equipment outdoors, does not require 30mA RCD protection.
In most domestic installations, the distinction is moot, as all socket-outlets intended for general use by ordinary persons, now require 30mA RCD protection.
The distinction is really only relevent where a PIR/EICR is being conducted.
As such it would affect which code you applied.
A lack of 30mA RCD protection to socket-outlets would warrent a code 4/C3, whereas a lack of 30mA RCD protection for socket-outlets used to supply mobile equipment outdoors would warrent a code 2/C2.

I know there isn't a specific requirement, but surely it is reasonable to assume that downstairs sockets could be used to supply mobile equipment outdoors. Hence the reason why time after time you see older installations with the downstairs ring circuit RCD protected.

back in 1981, the requirement was that one socket be RCD protected for the use of portable outdoor equipment, however, this was found to be inadequate. These days, on the older installations, how do you determine which sockets are being used for such a purpose? simply put, you can not.

 

[roukel01]

RCD's aside, another reason we should be advising that these old dinosaur boards should be pulled out is this..

I've lost count how many times I've come across a wylex board to find 30amp fuse wire used in a 5amp lighting circuit.

 

[Knobhead]

I’m an old dinosaur, you ain’t changing me
View attachment 10537

 

[rick]

No legal requirement to change it per se, I've seen these adverts who offer a "free electrical safety check" if you have a non-MCB board, and I presume after that it's all hard sell to upgrade it to people who will probably not know what they're talking about. For instance how many times have I been asked "is this safe" about a bit of bonding under the sink or in the bathroom.

Whilst no-one would dispute RCDs are a good thing, I sometimes wonder about old people, and if a lightbulb blows it can take out the lighting. OK if the lighting circuits are spread accross two RCDs taking lighting arrangements into account, but if not they are left with no lights.

 

[Crosswire]

Thanks guys, confirmed what I thought....



BTW The 'other sparks' who recommended the upgrade were British Gas....


Unbelievable.

*Edit* I agree that MCBs are more convenient, and that RCDs offer greater protecttion, but I could not, in all honesty, stare a customer in the face and tell them it was a requirement to upgrade. Thank God I don't work for BG .

 

[Knobhead]

Honesty they say is the best policy, but not always the most profitable. It’s down to the individual conscience.
Get tarred as a rip off merchant and it will take a long time to be rid the stigma. Bad news travels faster than good.