Bit of puzzler 3way.... any ideas please

[sythai]

Hi Guys

Recently swapped over few faceplates. Some of them being a 3way lighting circuit.

Customer mentioned today have slight issue, looks like I've got a wire the wrong way round !

• when intermediate switch is in position 1, they 2x other switches don't activate the light.
• when intermediate switch is in position 2, all works fine.

The ways it's been wired must back to a JB somewhere (which assuming will have live/ s-live in there also) which I'm trying to avoid having to hunt down if poss.

All I have at switches:

• switch 1 : 3c TE
• switch inter : 2 x TE
• switch 2 : 3c TE

Odd one one really, sure its something really simple.
Have had it before where strappers at inter are wrong way round and you cant get lights to turn off.

Any ideas please, what I am not seeing ?

Even just had a go trying re-create the fault on my garage rig with no luck.....

Cheers Sy (hot and bothered today ?)

 

[UNG]

I had an odd one a while ago and don't remember what make where the intermediate switch was configured side to side not top to bottom threw me a bit at the time and needed a check with the multimeter to verify how it was working
The other possibility is if your intermediate is actually a double pole switch that has found the wrong packaging

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Two other good possibilities there that I had not called out specifically, falling into my 'faulty switch' and 'faulty switch conceals wiring errors' categories. A DP switch would give the reported symptom with either 'conventional' or 'conversion' wiring. A side-to-side terminal layout would give it with 'conventional' only; on 'conversion' wiring the light would be permanently on in the 'straight through' position.

 

[littlespark]

Can I be the first to criticise the terminology?

Its 3c&e... not 3c t&e..... ie, a "3 core and earth"... not a "3 core twin and earth"

 

[7029 dave]

Thanks Guys.... really appreciate all your help and hopefully me not going bonkers !! ?

I'm going along the lines of dodgy switch, best I take a spare one along along (Hamilton hartland grid it.)

Not back until next week so will report back then

I've attached a schematic of what I've got..... conversion method which all must end up a JB somewhere.

View attachment 58597

Lets hope it is a faulty switch, with that wiring setup its hunt the JB good luck.
IMO, 2way or intermediate through a JB is bad practice, all connections should be at switch points.
Have you tested all commons/ strappers for continuity.?

 

[littlespark]

Lets hope it is a faulty switch, with that wiring setup its hunt the JB good luck.
IMO, 2way or intermediate through a JB is bad practice, all connections should be at switch points.
Have you tested all commons/ strappers for continuity.?

It wasn’t bad practice back in the 70’S or 80’s It’s only now we’ve realised fitted carpets and laminate flooring causes the problems of locating them.
Just next to the hatch in the attic, or on the landing, near the top of the stairs. The floorboards are possibly cut as access to the jb. And if the boards have ever been up in the past, they’ll squeak or sound loose when walked on.

Replace the jb with an mf equivalent, and happy days

 

[Mark Wright]

Presumably if it goes from 3core to T&E ? there is a junction box somewhere in the middle ? and it might be that the corresponding colours are not connected

also if it goes from 3core to T&E Red/Black how do you know If Red or Black is L1 or L2 ?

 

[sythai]

Lets hope it is a faulty switch, with that wiring setup its hunt the JB good luck.
IMO, 2way or intermediate through a JB is bad practice, all connections should be at switch points.
Have you tested all commons/ strappers for continuity.?

Was only a passing visit yesterday.... just had a go at swapping strappers around in every combination at the inter. Calling back next week with spare switch and ready to buzz out fully if so
[automerge]1591192532[/automerge]

It wasn’t bad practice back in the 70’S or 80’s It’s only now we’ve realised fitted carpets and laminate flooring causes the problems of locating them.
Just next to the hatch in the attic, or on the landing, near the top of the stairs. The floorboards are possibly cut as access to the jb. And if the boards have ever been up in the past, they’ll squeak or sound loose when walked on.

Replace the jb with an mf equivalent, and happy days

Luckily landing carpet is only loosely down (being replaced) and have spied a few screwed boards already ?️‍
[automerge]1591192621[/automerge]

Can I be the first to criticise the terminology?

Its 3c&e... not 3c t&e..... ie, a "3 core and earth"... not a "3 core twin and earth"

My bad ?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

also if it goes from 3core to T&E Red/Black how do you know If Red or Black is L1 or L2 ?

It doesn't matter which is L1 or L2 or how many times they cross over. Provided all the strappers are connected in some way, it will work. Unless you can find a flaw in my reasoning above, the fact that the 2-ways work correctly with the intermediate in one position proves that all the strappers and junction box connections are present and correct, i.e. the problem can only be within the intermediate switch itself. If anything else were wrong, one 2-way switch would disable the other either on or off in one position.

Unless I've missed something... please try to prove me wrong

Update: It's a challenge. Draw me a possible circuit showing a fault other than wrong connections at the intermediate or open-circuit contacts inside it, in which the 2-ways work correctly with the intermediate in one position, but they cannot turn the light on at all in the other.

 

[7029 dave]

It wasn’t bad practice back in the 70’S or 80’s It’s only now we’ve realised fitted carpets and laminate flooring causes the problems of locating them.
Just next to the hatch in the attic, or on the landing, near the top of the stairs. The floorboards are possibly cut as access to the jb. And if the boards have ever been up in the past, they’ll squeak or sound loose when walked on.

Replace the jb with an mf equivalent, and happy days

Yes I was not talking so much about JB methods in general, wired many lighting circuits this way, especially with occupied rewires, but was talking about the wiring of strappers/ commons for 2 way etc, no real reason not to have connections in the switches.

 

[Mark Wright]

Still not sure how it could go from 3core to T&E can someone draw it out?

I think it would make a difference because you would end up with L1 and L2 the wrong way round on the final switch and that would produce a problem like you say.

 

[7029 dave]

Can I be the first to criticise the terminology?

Its 3c&e... not 3c t&e..... ie, a "3 core and earth"... not a "3 core twin and earth"

Or tripple and earth

 

[littlespark]

I think we're getting away from the original question here. We've all given advice, and the OP will investigate when he returns to the job.
Hopefully something we've said will be spot on.... no point rambling over and over

 

[Mike Johnson]

Bloody ramblers they always leave the gate unlatched.

 

[Timbo]

Thanks Guys.... really appreciate all your help and hopefully me not going bonkers !! ?

I'm going along the lines of dodgy switch, best I take a spare one along along (Hamilton hartland grid it.)

Not back until next week so will report back then

I've attached a schematic of what I've got..... conversion method which all must end up a JB somewhere.

View attachment 58597

Just a point on your diagram - red was generally used as common connection, yellow / blue to L1 / L2. Have you checked continuity of cores to intermediate from each 2 way? Sorry if I've missed it.

 

[7029 dave]

Just a point on your diagram - red was generally used as common connection, yellow / blue to L1 / L2. Have you checked continuity of cores to intermediate from each 2 way? Sorry if I've missed it.

Common was either Red or Yellow round here, back in the day.