Boiler case removal, are you competent?

[snoopydo]

Since the design of most modern condensing boilers use the boiler casing as part of the combustion system, meaning only a gas safe engineer can remove them how many refuse to wire them up/ remove the case without the gas safe engineer present? and i guess more importantly how many realise that they are not allowed to remove the case of alot of these modern appliances??

 

[odawire]

I've always been able to access the wiring without removing the case itself and if it hasn't been commissioned yet it shouldn't matter anyway as technically you could be working under there supervision.

 

[Des 56]

Don't you just love this modern day culture of ours

Do we refuse to wire them up?
Lets not get paranoid about them


What a scary concept,having to get a heating engineer to oversee the fitting of a flex
By all means,don't ever operate a boiler that has just had a supply fitted,leave it to the Heating engineer,but lets get real please


Is this the H+S or the Compensation culture spreading its tentacles again ?

 

[trev]

So the bit where the zappy juice goes in is now part of the combustion chamber? Lol

 

[snowhead]

So the bit where the zappy juice goes in is now part of the combustion chamber? Lol

I believe the O.P has a misunderstanding on what the combustion chamber is.

Although in the eyes of the Gas Regs any WORK, i.e use of tools, would need the Worker to be competent even to remove the outer casing.

However, quite a few Gassafe eng would also not be considered competent to connect up todays more complex heating control circuits to a gas appliance.

 

[snoopydo]

i have not misunderstood what the combustion system of a boiler is, ive been in the industry for 20 years so have a good idea

i just wonder'd how many understood what the case and its seal does on many modern appliances, the dangers of it not being fitted correctly and how many check what the case does before removing it? afterall it seals the appliances flue gasses from the room the boiler is fitted which is an important thing.

im not saying its not going to happen in "the real world", same could be said about plumbers doing abit or wiring, it happens, i come across alot of boilers with the cases not secured back on properly after its been wired and Just thought it would be an interesting question and maybe make some more carefull about there working practice if they knew what the case does on many boilers.

the atitude of saying this is a H+S culture thing is wrong, surely you would want to know the dangers?? so you dont make any mistakes?? ask yourself this......... who is to blame if a case is fitted incorrectly and it hurts somebody? the gas safe engineer or the sparks who fitted the case on wrong afterwards?? I know who the judge would send to jail.

if you have wired on of the new range of worcester bosch compacts recently you will have noticed it has been designed to enable access the the wiring without removal of the entire case, this has been designed to allow non gas safe electricians to avoid breaking the gas regulations and avoid the problem of cases not being refitted correctly afterwards.

 

[chrish_1977]

Surely the outer casing is different to the combustion chamber casing, can't see it being all in one really, it's only the bits that make it go bang you can't work on unless your gas safe, so an outer casing is ok, it's also in the instructions, can't see the manufacturers making it, if you take the outer case off you expose the combustion chamber, how dangerous would that be on their part, also I have never come across a seal on the outer case, mainly due to the fact all the pipe work enters through the bottom, think wires are crossed

 

[ruston]

So the boiler manufacturers have created a lethal situation depending on the casing to keep the co in only with a perishable seal : I think i know who would be going to jail. The chicken and egg situation is ludicrous.

 

[odawire]

Surely the outer casing is different to the combustion chamber casing, can't see it being all in one really, it's only the bits that make it go bang you can't work on unless your gas safe, so an outer casing is ok, it's also in the instructions, can't see the manufacturers making it, if you take the outer case off you expose the combustion chamber, how dangerous would that be on their part, also I have never come across a seal on the outer case, mainly due to the fact all the pipe work enters through the bottom, think wires are crossed

To be fair to the OP there are a lot of boilers that the outer casing is crucial to the integrity of the combustion safety especially positive pressure types of which most of the new efficient ones tend to be. And they do need to be put on properly, some suggest a new seal every time. However most I work on are the ones that the electrics drop out of the bottom.

 

[snoopydo]

Surely the outer casing is different to the combustion chamber casing, can't see it being all in one really, it's only the bits that make it go bang you can't work on unless your gas safe, so an outer casing is ok, it's also in the instructions, can't see the manufacturers making it, if you take the outer case off you expose the combustion chamber, how dangerous would that be on their part, also I have never come across a seal on the outer case, mainly due to the fact all the pipe work enters through the bottom, think wires are crossed

so you have never wired a recent worcester bosch, or vaillant model for example?

basically if you remove the boiler case and can see the boilers internals like the fan, gas valve, heat exchanger then you have broken into the combustion system. There will be a seal that sits and seals this area when the case is on. If you take the case off and there is a big metal box which requires a second case to be open'd then your fine.

anything gas related which includes the combustion system and its seals, flue and air supply must only be worked upon by a gas safe engineer by law.

all boiler manufacturers state on the first few pages of the instruction manual that all work must be carried out by a competent person. The term "ignorance is no defense" springs to mind when somebody thinks they can blame a manufacturer for there mistakes.

 

[snoopydo]

So the boiler manufacturers have created a lethal situation depending on the casing to keep the co in only with a perishable seal : I think i know who would be going to jail. The chicken and egg situation is ludicrous.

i cant see how the boiler manufacturers have created a lethel situation, the boiler works fine. They state you must be competent to work on the appliance. If somebody removes the case and refits it incorrectly how is that the manufactuers fault??

if you buy an electrical fitting that meets a certain ip rating and fit it without putting it together properly and water gets in, is it the manufacturers fault?

manufacturers have no control over what an installer will do that moves outside there designed use and legally cant be responsible for these things really.

 

[trev]

For crying out loud you're not removing the case or accessing the combustion chamber. You're dropping an access panel to get to the terminals.

It's probably a moot point anyway because most gas guys are CPS registered so they do their own (Badly)

 

[Des 56]

What is it with the H+S bods who freaking out in hysterics on this forum

There is another thread about safe isolation with unreal ideas being floated and dire warnings of electricians actually working with electrics for christs sake

 

[trev]

Here's one for the H&S freaks.

A few times in my career I have had no choice other than to work live!

 

[davethsparky]

Some boilers you do have to remove the sealed casing to get to the wiring, Vaillant's and the worcester bosch CDi and Ri are a few

 

[Des 56]

Here's one for the H&S freaks.

A few times in my career I have had no choice other than to work live!

Did I read that correctly
Oh my God I have re read it and you actually admit this
Why do so,for goodness sake,have you not been warned that electricity is dangerous

Just because someone works in this trade,it doesn't mean they know how to work with this killer power
Hasn't that become apparent to you
You will be lucky to reach your twenties with that sort of brazen attitude my lad

You better go back to college and write out fifty times
I shall always listen to teacher
You naughty boy

 

[davethsparky]

Here's one for the H&S freaks.

A few times in my career I have had no choice other than to work live!

Yes and if presented with no possible option other than to work live then you are permitted to do so within the current H+S legislation.

I resent being called an H+S freak, I am most certainly not. But I do agree with the underlying principles of preventing death and serious injury in the work place, does this make me such a bad person?

 

[trev]

I'll do just that Des but I think you let me off lightly with the 50 lines
Also, tyvm for the age related compliment, now everyone will think I'm a young spring chicken

 

[trev]

Yes and if presented with no possible option other than to work live then you are permitted to do so within the current H+S legislation.

I resent being called an H+S freak, I am most certainly not. But I do agree with the underlying principles of preventing death and serious injury in the work place, does this make me such a bad person?

Dave, first off that post was a bit of a joke. Secondly I wasn't saying you are a freak of any description.
No, attention to H&S matters does not make you a bad person.
We cool?

- - - Updated - - -

Although I have worked live on several occassions when I've had no other choice.

 

[snoopydo]

thats one for i dont care, i have no interest, ill do what i want section LOL

 

[davethsparky]

Sorry i'm getting confused between two different threads, not helped by the constant drop outs of the forum. I've posted on the isolation thread and it appears not made my point very clear.

I think everyone of us will have been in situations where isolation is just not possible and survived them.

Of course we are cool.

 

[Des 56]

Lighten up please Dave ,there is meant to be humour underlying my replies,the term freaks is but a forceful description for me to use and not meant as abuse
Peace brother

Some people take the H+S culture very seriously and they are quite right to adhere to all its priciples if they chose

Others like me see it as a gross invasion of a person responsibilities to themselves for their own safety,I would like to see it decimated in its current climate

There are people who it could be said need protecting from themselves and special consideration should be given to that fact

On the other hand.when someone learns a trade like electrician,working live is like breathing in and breathing out,it is natural and should be taught so that it becomes natural

I suspect the reason working live is now seen as taboo is because there has been a marked lowering of the standards that constitute the trade electrician and that many would be on death row if they were to do so

Along with The lowering the training levels comes the need to protect those who may have a death sentence were they to work live

Live working should make you fear electricity and have such respect for its dangers that your own safety is well catered for by your own experience and training and should not be seen as some act of foolishness or recklessness

 

[davethsparky]

Ok, i'll go have a chat with some of mr guiness's finest, that should do the trick.

I work in a couple oe other industries: the entertainment industry and I co-own a professional fireworks company.
H+S nonsense in this industry is nothing compared to the fireworks game! How's about earthing the iso containers used to store the fireworks at two opposing corners for lightning protection, despite them being inside another building which also had to have full lightning conductor system and there being much taller buildings and trees which are far more attractive to lightning very close by?


I think the biggest problem is the difference between the H+S law which is generally pretty sensible and just requires you to stop and make sure you are aware of the risks and avoid them where possible, and the H+S culture fuelled by overzealous mini-hitler's, insurance companies, newspapers and blood sucking vampires (lawyers)

 

[chrish_1977]

I hope your not calling me ignorant, and no I haven't worked on those types, the most teeny was glow worm, and that outer casing doesn't expose any if the combustion chamber, all I ever expose is the bit where I need I do my part no more no less, I may not have 20 years experience but I can read instructions, I do jot think in gas safe so do not feel the need to pull a boiler apart just to get at the electrics inside, common sense does rule I'm afraid. Rant over

 

[snoopydo]

no offence was ment by the "ignorance is no defense" to yourself, it just a phase thats i used to make the point that a manufacturer cant be blamed for a persons mistakes because they do not understand something. Im glad you take the time to read instructions and want to follow them.

Its quite common for me to find a incorrectly fitted case when performing a quality control/ snaggs on some of the contracts i work on. Probably more times than not its the gas engineer whos left it rather then the sparks. I normally find a woodscrew holding it on because the case screws have been lost. I had a job recently where a customer complained they got headaches when in/around the kitchen, a loose boiler case was all i found which had been removed recently by a "sparks" to change the time clock, i found no proof that this was causing a spillage of fumes, but it made me think.

I wonderd what knowledge and atitude the electrical industry had about the issue, from the limited response of this forum it seems that the issue has never been discused or raised by any body. I would have thought that people would want to discuss it, not just claim health and safety madness or dismiss it like an insult because they have been doing the job for years. personally I would be happy for an electrican to perform work on such an appliance, especially knowing they had an understanding of what the case does and the importance of fitting it correctly, maybe if the issues were discussed it would decrease the risk of anybody leaving a case dangerous.

i honestly dont see a difference if a sparks leaves a dangerous live part, or a dangerous incorrectly fitted boiler case. Why should you not have good knowledge about both jobs to be able to perform your work in a safe manner?

Wether or not we like it, many trades are interlinked and there should be a good understanding of each others trades and rules, im sure there are plenty of things plumbers do that make you feel uncomfortable.

i can list some things sparks do that drive me mad sometimes, but im sure its because of a lack of discussion and understanding on both side.

 

[Silly Sausage]

snoopydo, can you give us one or two examples (Make/Model) of boilers where the outer casing is part of the combustion chamber? That's the way I'm reading this anyway!

 

[telectrix]

there are plenty of things plumbers do that make you feel uncomfortable.

would say uncomfortable is not an appropriate word. murderous is more apt for pipes installed on cables, pipes run in front of consumer units/sockets etc., cables blowtorched, floorboards butchered, tools abused or nicked.hate the wet-pants brigade.rant over.

 

[snoopydo]

snoopydo, can you give us one or two examples (Make/Model) of boilers where the outer casing is part of the combustion chamber? That's the way I'm reading this anyway!

all the worcester bosch greenstar range like 28i junior, 30 si, cdi classic....... apart from the new compact model which has been designed to allow wiring without removal of the case. an actual selling point pushed by bosch.

vaillant ecotect plus range

baxi GA range

viessmann vitodens range

to name some i have fitted. there are plenty out there.

 

[snoopydo]

there are plenty of things plumbers do that make you feel uncomfortable.

would say uncomfortable is not an appropriate word. murderous is more apt for pipes installed on cables, pipes run in front of consumer units/sockets etc., cables blowtorched, floorboards butchered, tools abused or nicked.hate the wet-pants brigade.rant over.

there is a difference tho between being a idiot (which plenty of plumbers are i agree) and knowing what your doing is wrong, and doing something that you dont understand is wrong. Being somebody who has worked as both trades i think both trades are as bad as each other LOL

 

[telectrix]

can't say i've ever damaged water pipes when installing cables ( drilled into a couple when there's been no indication that they were there ). i've never run conduit across sink taps or over the top of a bog seat. never borrowed a precision screwdriver off a plumber and then hit it with a hammer to make holes in masonry,never used a blowlamp on plastic water pipes, and never, ever, nicked a plumber's tools. ( on just 1 domestic site i lost a voltstick, a socket tester and a £50 set of klauke terminal drivers. all found in the plumber's van after i kicked off.)

 

[UNG]

It's a pity that the electrical industry didn't go the way the gas guy's have gone they seem to have everything wrapped up with can't do this and can't do that without being Gas safe. The electrical industry just opened the doors and told everybody it was easy to become competent to do anything with electrics

 

[valleybilly]

And dont forget the £900 flue gas analyzer you'll need to test combustion / temp / etc after the casing has been removed !

 

[Geordie Spark]

And dont forget the £900 flue gas analyzer you'll need to test combustion / temp / etc after the casing has been removed !

Remember the good old days when you looked through the little glass window at the flame picture and just KNEW everything was ok??

 

[chrish_1977]

And the £1100 mft to test the spur the plumber has installed

 

[trbod]

I love this forums , you really cheer me up reading threads like these

 

[snoopydo]

And dont forget the £900 flue gas analyzer you'll need to test combustion / temp / etc after the casing has been removed !

And the £1100 mft to test the spur the plumber has installed

you both need to shop around alittle if thats what you spend.

my FGA cost me about £550 and my MFT about £600. the FGA does cost £120 a year to calibrate tho.

call it a draw!!

 

[snoopydo]

can't say i've ever damaged water pipes when installing cables ( drilled into a couple when there's been no indication that they were there ). i've never run conduit across sink taps or over the top of a bog seat. never borrowed a precision screwdriver off a plumber and then hit it with a hammer to make holes in masonry,never used a blowlamp on plastic water pipes, and never, ever, nicked a plumber's tools. ( on just 1 domestic site i lost a voltstick, a socket tester and a £50 set of klauke terminal drivers. all found in the plumber's van after i kicked off.)

I agree, plenty of plumbers with bad working habbits about. Putting theft in as a discription is abit harsh. Im guess he was a tea leaf regardless of being a plumber LOL

i had an small argument with a sparks last week, after he had drilled through the back of a gas meter box to run his earth bonding on a rewire. Had to walk away......... theres no talking to some.

i guess what im saying is take away the trade and you still have an idiot

 

[trbod]

I agree, plenty of plumbers with bad working habbits about. Putting theft in as a discription is abit harsh. Im guess he was a tea leaf regardless of being a plumber LOL

i had an small argument with a sparks last week, after he had drilled through the back of a gas meter box to run his earth bonding on a rewire. Had to walk away......... theres no talking to some.

i guess what im saying is take away the trade and you still have an idiot

And sparkies are different how ?

 

[snoopydo]

And sparkies are different how ?

a absense of certain chromosomes maybe??

 

[marcusone]

Since the design of most modern condensing boilers use the boiler casing as part of the combustion system, meaning only a gas safe engineer can remove them how many refuse to wire them up/ remove the case without the gas safe engineer present? and i guess more importantly how many realise that they are not allowed to remove the case of alot of these modern appliances??

Relax everyone. Remove case and wire it up. It is the gassafe engineers responsibility to then commission the appliance to manufacturers instructions prior to handing over to the customer.