Boiler Isolator

[DPG]

Table 537.4 confirms that a plug and socket can be used for isolation. Not sure what he is seeing that overrides this.

 

[Dartlec]

Regulation 701.55

In zone l, only the following fixed and permanently connected current-using equipment shall be installed, provided
it is suitable for installation in zone I according to the manufacturer's instructions:
(iv) Whirlpool units
(v) Electric showers
(vi) Shower pumps
(vii) Equipment protected by SELV or PELV at a nominal voltage not exceeding 25 VAC rms or 60 V ripple-free
DC, the safety source being installed outside zones 0, I and 2
(viii) Ventilation equipment
(ix) Towel rails
(x) Water heating appliances
(xi) Luminaires.

I've seen that mistake before - the only way I can read that regulation is that 240V extractor fans are allowed in zone 1, provided that the manufacturers instructions state it is suitable. Manufacturers instructions will usually require RCD - Do you know the make/model of fan?

The only benefit of the doubt may be that he couldn't determine whether the manufacturer states this can be used in Zone 1 - and if it doesn't then a low voltage fan would be needed. But his specific statement is wrong...

The separate issue with some of the other points is not whether they comply with current version of BS7671, it's whether that becomes a C2, C3, or even no code at all (originally the old C4).

Non compliance with BS7671 does NOT automatically mean a C2 - C2 means potentially dangerous - usually that if a fault or foreseeable situation occurs, then danger will occur...

The other ones you've listed sound like C3 to me, not C2, but obviously I've not seen the site as he has...

As to where you go from here, it's difficult. If he is a member of a body - NICEIC, NAPIT, then you could approach them. They will likely be cautious about intervening with an inspectors opinion, unless there are blatent errors, rather than judgement calls...

If you can post the whole document, with identifying details redacted, it may be clearer whether this is a case of judgement calls, or clear errors....

It may be worth going back to him, asking what guidance he uses to decide between C2/C3 etc - as at least that gives you a common point for discussion. The Government advice now specifically mentions Best Practice Guide 4 I believe, though some people use the NAPIT's book - Codebreakers, which seems to be harsher in some of its coding.

I assume this is for a rented property, in which case a satisfactory report is required?

In that case, your options are:

1. Get him to do the remedials and negotiate to get a satisfactory report. Get a clear quote of what he's going to do first and don't be afraid to question.
2. Get someone else to do the 'remedials', and/or someone competent to put in writing that they do not need doing - then use that in combination with the EICR you have to prove compliance.
3. Get someone else to do the EICR - in which case discuss with them beforehand the issues raised in the first one, to be sure you don't end up in a similar situation.

 

[KeithC]

Regulation 701.55

In zone l, only the following fixed and permanently connected current-using equipment shall be installed, provided
it is suitable for installation in zone I according to the manufacturer's instructions:
(iv) Whirlpool units
(v) Electric showers
(vi) Shower pumps
(vii) Equipment protected by SELV or PELV at a nominal voltage not exceeding 25 VAC rms or 60 V ripple-free
DC, the safety source being installed outside zones 0, I and 2
(viii) Ventilation equipment
(ix) Towel rails
(x) Water heating appliances
(xi) Luminaires.

I've seen that mistake before - the only way I can read that regulation is that 240V extractor fans are allowed in zone 1, provided that the manufacturers instructions state it is suitable. Manufacturers instructions will usually require RCD - Do you know the make/model of fan?

The only benefit of the doubt may be that he couldn't determine whether the manufacturer states this can be used in Zone 1 - and if it doesn't then a low voltage fan would be needed. But his specific statement is wrong...

The separate issue with some of the other points is not whether they comply with current version of BS7671, it's whether that becomes a C2, C3, or even no code at all (originally the old C4).

Non compliance with BS7671 does NOT automatically mean a C2 - C2 means potentially dangerous - usually that if a fault or foreseeable situation occurs, then danger will occur...

The other ones you've listed sound like C3 to me, not C2, but obviously I've not seen the site as he has...

As to where you go from here, it's difficult. If he is a member of a body - NICEIC, NAPIT, then you could approach them. They will likely be cautious about intervening with an inspectors opinion, unless there are blatent errors, rather than judgement calls...

If you can post the whole document, with identifying details redacted, it may be clearer whether this is a case of judgement calls, or clear errors....

It may be worth going back to him, asking what guidance he uses to decide between C2/C3 etc - as at least that gives you a common point for discussion. The Government advice now specifically mentions Best Practice Guide 4 I believe, though some people use the NAPIT's book - Codebreakers, which seems to be harsher in some of its coding.

I assume this is for a rented property, in which case a satisfactory report is required?

In that case, your options are:

1. Get him to do the remedials and negotiate to get a satisfactory report. Get a clear quote of what he's going to do first and don't be afraid to question.
2. Get someone else to do the 'remedials', and/or someone competent to put in writing that they do not need doing - then use that in combination with the EICR you have to prove compliance.
3. Get someone else to do the EICR - in which case discuss with them beforehand the issues raised in the first one, to be sure you don't end up in a similar situation.

Thanks Dartlec,

It is for rental property, 3 actually. My problem is that I retired 10 years ago and now live in France so can't get back easily to take care of things.
I worked commercial so never had experience in houses or EICR's. The 1 bedroom flats were all bought like this. I did have the CU's changed in 2 of them 5 years ago. I know the make/model of the fan so I'll write to Xpelair, see what they say.
I hear you about C2's meaning potential danger, I'm struggling to see how a plug top suppying a boiler or lack of isolator (except the breaker) on a fan is going to cause any danger

What do you think about his comment that 7671 having new editions changes things. By his reckoning rewirables should be getting C2's now. No? Or do they? It was always my belief (wrongly?), that if it was once in the regs you couldn't give it a C2.

Cheers,

Keith.

 

[timhoward]

What do you think about his comment that 7671 having new editions changes things. By his reckoning rewirables should be getting C2's now.

BS7671:2018 specifically says that installations to previous versions of the regs are not necessarily unsafe.

Best Practise Guide 4 says: "
"It should be borne in mind that, as stated in the introduction to BS 7671, existing installations that have been constructed in accordance with earlier editions of the Standard may not comply with the current edition in every respect, but this does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading."

Regarding the main earth, BPG4 says the following is a C2 - "Inadequate cross-sectional area of a main protective bonding conductor where the conductor is less than 6 mm2 or where there is evidence of thermal damage". More info needed about earthing system (TNCS / TNS etc.), suppliers fuse and size of tails to comment further really.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Notwithstanding my earlier comments wrt Earthing of said boiler.
Regulation 537.3.2.2 actually lists plug and socket as an acceptable device for switching off for mech maintenance, which i knew and virtually everyone in the industry i have met. (when asked0, lol - Therefore if he cannot understand that very simple straight forward regulation, i do now wonder how the rest of his judgements will appear under scutiny.... Second opinion time i think

 

[Dartlec]

Thanks Dartlec,

It is for rental property, 3 actually. My problem is that I retired 10 years ago and now live in France so can't get back easily to take care of things.
I worked commercial so never had experience in houses or EICR's. The 1 bedroom flats were all bought like this. I did have the CU's changed in 2 of them 5 years ago. I know the make/model of the fan so I'll write to Xpelair, see what they say.
I hear you about C2's meaning potential danger, I'm struggling to see how a plug top suppying a boiler or lack of isolator (except the breaker) on a fan is going to cause any danger

What do you think about his comment that 7671 having new editions changes things. By his reckoning rewirables should be getting C2's now. No? Or do they? It was always my belief (wrongly?), that if it was once in the regs you couldn't give it a C2.

Cheers,

Keith.

There are some things that were once fine according to the regs, that are now C2 - though a lot of them are related to very old methods of fusing, or wiring that is crumbling due to age - or the lack of an cpc for lighting circuits prior to 1966...

The situation with EICRs is complicated, partly because BS7671 doesn't properly address it and leaves it to 'guidance'. The testing is to current regulations, but things that are not as per current regulations are not automatically a code (There used to be a Code 4 that was dropped).

If a property was installed correctly as per regs say even 30 years ago, then there is not going to be much that should reach a C2, based on current guidance. Lack of RCD protection on sockets that might supply outdoor equipment and bathroom circuits is the main one that crops up.

Rewireable fuses are not themselves an automatic failure (Though personally they really should be gone in rental properties these days) - but boards that age often haven't had RCD protection added, which is where a C2 can reasonably be applied.

The other issue is that many flats/houses, including some done recently, do not comply with the Regs that were in place at the time... The classic example is single insulated twin and earth cores visible at downlight terminations.

 

[westward10]

Category 4 to be precise ?

 

[timhoward]

@KeithC it might be worth mentioning what rough area the property is in, someone nearby might be willing to have a quick look around to form their own view/2nd opinion and subsequently do another EICR.

 

[KeithC]

Was just about to ask if anyone is in Eastbourne? Give a price for putting things right?
Cheers.

 

[KeithC]

There are some things that were once fine according to the regs, that are now C2 - though a lot of them are related to very old methods of fusing, or wiring that is crumbling due to age - or the lack of an cpc for lighting circuits prior to 1966...

The situation with EICRs is complicated, partly because BS7671 doesn't properly address it and leaves it to 'guidance'. The testing is to current regulations, but things that are not as per current regulations are not automatically a code (There used to be a Code 4 that was dropped).

If a property was installed correctly as per regs say even 30 years ago, then there is not going to be much that should reach a C2, based on current guidance. Lack of RCD protection on sockets that might supply outdoor equipment and bathroom circuits is the main one that crops up.

Rewireable fuses are not themselves an automatic failure (Though personally they really should be gone in rental properties these days) - but boards that age often haven't had RCD protection added, which is where a C2 can reasonably be applied.

The other issue is that many flats/houses, including some done recently, do not comply with the Regs that were in place at the time... The classic example is single insulated twin and earth cores visible at downlight terminations.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers.

 

[timhoward]

Was just about to ask if anyone is in Eastbourne? Give a price for putting things right?
Cheers.

Funnily enough I used to live in that area but am only there periodically now. There's a guy I trust in Polegate - I'll PM you details.
Tim

 

[KeithC]

Funnily enough I used to live in that area but am only there periodically now. There's a guy I trust in Polegate - I'll PM you details.
Tim

Let's hope it's not the same guy that did these other ones.?

 

[KeithC]

So......

Regarding the plug and socket for isolation. There is no issue with a socket and plug being used for isolation (except in bathrooms) however this needs to be double pole isolation. The switch on the socket is only single pole and it is very likely that when isolating the device the switch would be used rather than the plug being removed.

An unswitched socket outlet then. Coz any gas safe enginner wouldn't know to unplug the boiler. FFS.