Boiler Isolator

[KeithC]

Hi All,

I've just had a new condition report. He's given C2 for no fan isolator which I don't agree with.
He also given C2 for the boiler being on a plug/socket rather than a DP switch. I really can't see that being potentially dangerous, what do you guys think?
Also the free standing electric cooker has the cooker switch/isolator on the wall above it. I agree there is a burn risk but C2 or C3?

Thanks,

Keith.

 

[Dustydazzler]

No fan isolater is a c3

Boiler on a 13a plug top is a c3 / no code required

cooker switch directly above the cooker is a c3 in my opinion

 

[DPG]

Can't see why a boiler on a 13A plug even warrants a comment. What's the issue with it?

 

[KeithC]

Can't see why a boiler on a 13A plug even warrants a comment. What's the issue with it?

No issue, as far as I'm concerned. This is a money making chancer, he's even said the extractor fan shouldn't be in zone0/1. It's actually in zone 2 and I've just looked out the invoice for it, 3 years old and IP44.
What's the deal with 10mm main earth and 6mm gas/water? It was in regs at the time of installation, isn't that what matters? Do i need to upgrade unless i'm getting new circuits added or new consumer unit?

Cheers.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Boiler on a plughead satisfies some of the requirements and probably all from the boiler manufacturer POV. The only issue i can see is that you also remove the earth connection when you un plug it. You would want to ensure that the earthing is providing protection for instance from UFH valves or zone valves or anything that is powered independent from the boiler plug top. Typically the copper pipework at the boiler is earthed independently anyway which is the best solution.
I would ask him why he has C2 the boiler just in case he has seen something that worried him.

 

[telectrix]

i'dalso ask him when he's buying his Ferrari. bloody chancer.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I’m fed up reading about chancers using Eicr s as a license to scam people into unnecessary remedial work

thr whole indusrty is going down to toilet

 

[KeithC]

I’m fed up reading about chancers using Eicr s as a license to scam people into unnecessary remedial work

thr whole indusrty is going down to toilet

Yep. Well unluckily for him I had half an idea he was wrong. But how many others just accept it. Not good.
Do you have any thoughts about C2 for 6mm main earth and 6mm bonding? Do I really need to upgrade unless i'm getting new circuits added or new consumer unit?

 

[Dartlec]

No issue, as far as I'm concerned. This is a money making chancer, he's even said the extractor fan shouldn't be in zone0/1. It's actually in zone 2 and I've just looked out the invoice for it, 3 years old and IP44.
What's the deal with 10mm main earth and 6mm gas/water? It was in regs at the time of installation, isn't that what matters? Do i need to upgrade unless i'm getting new circuits added or new consumer unit?

Cheers.

The Best Practise Guide on EICR codes says that 6mm for bonding is fine, if no sign of thermal damage and does not require a code but should be noted

10mm main earth would depend on the main cutout fuse and supply type. For PME supplies the DNO often specify 16mm - but unless it's a TT (earth Rod) then the size is what they have supplied from their equipment - and they often won't upgrade it unless changing something else...

The adiabatic equation could be used to determine the required size of main earth - and 6mm will almost always be fine.

I much prefer EICRs that list the reg number beside observations -at least it gives some idea of what basis they are stating something is dangerous...

EDIT: The BPG does say that "Absence of a reliable and effective means of earthing for the installation", so worth checking that the Ze is acceptable - that would be the only reason I could see for a non-thermally damaged 10mm main earth to be given a C2.

 

[Dartlec]

Boiler on a plughead satisfies some of the requirements and probably all from the boiler manufacturer POV. The only issue i can see is that you also remove the earth connection when you un plug it. You would want to ensure that the earthing is providing protection for instance from UFH valves or zone valves or anything that is powered independent from the boiler plug top. Typically the copper pipework at the boiler is earthed independently anyway which is the best solution.
I would ask him why he has C2 the boiler just in case he has seen something that worried him.

But in theory if you unplugged it for the report, then it isn't part of the fixed wiring (though I know there are arguments that it's not that simple)...

 

[Dartlec]

I’m fed up reading about chancers using Eicr s as a license to scam people into unnecessary remedial work

thr whole indusrty is going down to toilet

I really think that there needs to be a system - where they are all electronically placed on file with some suitable national body (or even a respected forum of experts ahem) - who then checks a small %ge of them manually...

From what I've seen - they would pick up so many significant errors just from a tiny percentage overview that it would force something to be done...

Also would resolve any arguments down the line if something happened, as to what was written down - so a protection for the inspectors who are doing a proper job.

The problem is two fold at the moment

1. Inspectors massively over coding to gain extra work, or because they have a copy of CodeBreakers and no experience...
2. "inspectors" passing dangerous properties with no more than a 10 minute site visit and picture of the consumer unit...

 

[plugsandsparks]

But in theory if you unplugged it for the report, then it isn't part of the fixed wiring (though I know there are arguments that it's not that simple)...

IMO, it really does depend, from an EICR POV, i would not get excited by just seeing a plug top but i would immediately look to see how all the other controls are powered, e.g. timer, valves and the pipework. It is not un-usual to see 240V going to the boiler from a call for heat of a timer or thermostat, it is not a given that the 240V originates from the boiler, hence my comment about the earth being removed when un-plugged.

 

[i=p/u]

Time clock normally feed a socket, everything powered off plugtop, which is normally just the burner and working off hi low limit stat.

why is people using people they don't know? word of mouth is best soloution.. its no1 awnser in google. How did you find this electrician?

 

[KeithC]

Time clock normally feed a socket, everything powered off plugtop, which is normally just the burner and working off hi low limit stat.

why is people using people they don't know? word of mouth is best soloution.. its no1 awnser in google. How did you find this electrician?

This guy was recommended.

 

[KeithC]

So I emailed and asked why were items being classed as C2's when they were OK and the time of installation, presumably the 16th.
Here's his reply.........
This is considered a general rule of thumb, however not strictly correct. You will tend to find that installations installed during the previous regulation publication will be considered a C3 rather than a C2. E.g Installations installed under the 17th edition will likely be C3 when tested/inspected as we are on the 18th edition of the wiring regulations. Installations during the 16th edition will likely be a C2. As said it is a rule of thumb but there are items which are considered a C2 regardless of the edition they were installed.

His comment on boiler isolation....
Regulation537.2: Devices for isolation and Regulation 537.3.2: Devices for mechanical maintenance

His comment on fan isolation....
Regulation537.2: Devices for isolation and Regulation 537.3.2: Devices for mechanical maintenance

His comment on the cooker switch being above the cooker....
Regulation 537.3.3 Devices for emergency switching off.

His comment on the position of the extractor fan being above the bath, even tough it is IP44..........
Regulation 701.55: Current-using equipment. 230v equipment cannot be installed within Zone1

His comment on the main eart being 6mm...........
Regulation 543.1.1: The cross sectional area of every protective conductor shall be calculated in accordance with regulation 543.1.3 or selected in accordance with Regulation 543.1.4. The regulations states that it a main protective bonding conductor shall have a cross sectional area not less than half the cross sectional area required for the earthing conductor and not less than 6mm2.

I'd really apreciate your views. Should I just get the work done or if he's wrong can I appeal in some way?

Cheers.