BOILER SERVICING -- Cleaning.

[chris murphy]

a bit off topic, but back in the 70's and 80's, my core business was \t|V repairs. the dust that accumulated on the PCBs was massive, due to the electro static attraction with up to 25kV floating round. a soft paint brush and a vac soon sorted that. done usually with the set switched on so i could see if anything stopped working while cleaning. however, the dust rarely caused any problems.

Hello telectrix,

Your message is completely `on topic` as the OP / Peter had originally been asking whether excessive dust on the PCB and other Electrical components within his Heating Boiler should have been previously cleaned off during the Servicing of the Boiler.

He described how dust can cause problems with Electronic items such as PCB`s - something I am sure would almost never be looked at by most Heating Engineers or Electricians when Servicing or Repairing / Replacing Electrical Components on a Boiler.

However I did mention that under normal circumstances `excessive dust` would not be found on a Boiler PCB or Electrical components / Connections.

Your example of PCB`s within a TV is interesting - I think that I am correct in thinking that We generally don`t have the facility of the `TV Repair Engineer` visiting our Home`s and repairing malfunctioning TV`s anymore - so the `internal components` never get any dust removal that might have been done in the past which You described - as additional `preventive maintenance` while a Repair was being carried out.

The TV`s in my Home - 2 of which are hanging on Chimney Breasts - have never had any dust removal because they have never had the backs off for any reason - when I have tried to even remove the dust on the rear of the top of those 2 TV`s [on an 8 step pair of Steps with a vacuum cleaner hose / nozzle] some of it definitely goes into the vent grilles - that is without the dust that falls into the grille slots throughout the years.

Although You mentioned that you were not aware of any problems caused by dust on TV PCB`s etc. - from the OP / Peters description of what dust can cause on `Electronics` - I wonder how many TV`s have malfunctioned and perhaps just been thrown away / replaced because dust caused the `Breakdown` ?

If any of the wall mounted TV`s in my Home malfunctioned they would obviously have to be taken down - but I don`t know of any `TV Repair Engineers` anywhere near my area of London.

And taking 50" LCD TV`s to somewhere like Curry`s [if they repair tv`s ?] - getting a Repair for a reasonable price and expecting to get it back without scratches etc. all over the `Piano Black` frame seems unlikely to me ?

Would You say that `Modern TV`s` were more susceptible to be affected by dust because there are more Electronic components ?

Regards,

Chris

 

[telectrix]

Hello telectrix,

Your message is completely `on topic` as the OP / Peter had originally been asking whether excessive dust on the PCB and other Electrical components within his Heating Boiler should have been previously cleaned off during the Servicing of the Boiler.

He described how dust can cause problems with Electronic items such as PCB`s - something I am sure would almost never be looked at by most Heating Engineers or Electricians when Servicing or Repairing / Replacing Electrical Components on a Boiler.

However I did mention that under normal circumstances `excessive dust` would not be found on a Boiler PCB or Electrical components / Connections.

Your example of PCB`s within a TV is interesting - I think that I am correct in thinking that We generally don`t have the facility of the `TV Repair Engineer` visiting our Home`s and repairing malfunctioning TV`s anymore - so the `internal components` never get any dust removal that might have been done in the past which You described - as additional `preventive maintenance` while a Repair was being carried out.

The TV`s in my Home - 2 of which are hanging on Chimney Breasts - have never had any dust removal because they have never had the backs off for any reason - when I have tried to even remove the dust on the rear of the top of those 2 TV`s [on an 8 step pair of Steps with a vacuum cleaner hose / nozzle] some of it definitely goes into the vent grilles - that is without the dust that falls into the grille slots throughout the years.

Although You mentioned that you were not aware of any problems caused by dust on TV PCB`s etc. - from the OP / Peters description of what dust can cause on `Electronics` - I wonder how many TV`s have malfunctioned and perhaps just been thrown away / replaced because dust caused the `Breakdown` ?

If any of the wall mounted TV`s in my Home malfunctioned they would obviously have to be taken down - but I don`t know of any `TV Repair Engineers` anywhere near my area of London.

And taking 50" LCD TV`s to somewhere like Curry`s [if they repair tv`s ?] - getting a Repair for a reasonable price and expecting to get it back without scratches etc. all over the `Piano Black` frame seems unlikely to me ?

Would You say that `Modern TV`s` were more susceptible to be affected by dust because there are more Electronic components ?

Regards,

Chris

modern TVs are far less likely to collect as much dust. this is because they don't use the high voltages that CRT sets used to attract. back then it was common to find PCBs with up to 1/2" covering then if they were a few years old. the only problems used to appear were around the HV section (8kV+) and on the CRT final anode (25kV) when the air was damp and tracking would occur.

 

[chris murphy]

modern TVs are far less likely to collect as much dust. this is because they don't use the high voltages that CRT sets used to attract. back then it was common to find PCBs with up to 1/2" covering then if they were a few years old. the only problems used to appear were around the HV section (8kV+) and on the CRT final anode (25kV) when the air was damp and tracking would occur.

Hello again telectrix,

Thanks very much for your reply and the information about the lower voltages operating on Modern TV`s not causing as much dust to be attracted to the Electronic / Electrical components.

Regards,

Chris

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,
OK, understood. I'll go for the x400 then. I take your point about the x 800 having to be more aggressive in some way, and would rather not explore the leak potential of my heating system. . I'll give sentinal a call on Monday, just to see what they say and report back here.

Hi Telectrix.
That's interesting about TVs and the huge amount of dust. Of course they tended not to have so many IC's back then as they were less 'digital'. Although having said that, I guess by the mid/late 80s, there were quite a few very low current components on board, and as you say there wasn't a particular problem with dust, other than on the HV sections if damp was present.

I guess it might also depend on the nature of the dust and what was in it. But consider how 'noisey' potentiometers become if dust gets into them. -- Literally you can hear it on older radios/amplifiers etc with an analogue volume control. As with any mechanical switch device, if dust contaminates the contacts, it can interfere with how it operates. I don't know about modern boilers, with digital and remote control, but on my old 240 there are at least 3 pots where dust can find it's way inside them. Again, it appears not to have been a specific issue anyway, and would boiler service engineers carry switch cleaner these days to find out? I guess with how cheap things like temp control pots are, they'd just swap them, even if they went to that level of fault finding.

Of course I haven't been looking at this from the point of view of a time constrained boiler engineers, who works for a company and probably has numerous calls to get to. He probably has to be in and out asap. So I guess real fault finding might be out of the question in a lot of cases. But surely in the long run, if the engineer then returns to the same fault, as it was misdiagnosed previouly, that's a false economy. Hence to my way of thinking, dust removal which takes less than a minute or so, even if it's not obvious it's a problem, seems like a good idea.

 

[Eliza Bennett]

Remember to have your natural gas boiler checked at least once a year by a professional maintenance service provider, especially if you have had if for more than 2 years running. Usually, newer models are safer to operate. Still, you must be careful when working with natural gas appliances. If you suspect any problems, get in contact with professional assistance right away.

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,
I haven't gotten around to flushing/cleaning yet, as with life, it got in the way. lol. Hopefully I can do it in the next week or so.

Hello Eliza,
May I ask the reason for your reply?
And you say " -- have your natural gas boiler checked at least once a year -- ". Is that REALLY neccessary? How often if "at least once"? Twice, three times? Every week? . My question was about the nature of the "service" in particular in respect to cleaning. You mention "a professional maintenance service provider". What do you consider to be Service/Maintenance? Is this just a safety inspection, or something more in your opinion? Thanks.

 

[Last plumber]

Hello slpjslpj

The actual 'service' does depend on who you get.

It depends on your training, background, mentality, experience etc.

Some look at it that flue gas analysis tells you everything and as long as it reads well, that's good enough. Ten minutes of a job, runaway!

I can only speak for myself here but in your case (20 ear old RSF), it would be stripped cleaned inspected and tested fully. There are many reasons for this of course, one of them being that the thing is kept in a condition where it can be easily repaired and another would be to try and avoid/pre-empt, failures/faults.

As far as PCB's are concerned, they are normally in a box/case but I do tend to look inside the box to make sure there is nothing lurking that could cause an issue. If it looked unclean, yes I would clean it.
I do clean any electrical connections that look to be contaminated with dust or anything else for the reasons you stated.

It would take me one to two hours to properly service a Boiler like yours.

Modern Domestic Boilers are slightly different. Due to their design you don't tend to strip them as often but they should be inspected and tested once every 12 months. I tend to work on Vaillant Boilers more than any others (although I do work an all manufactured appliances), and to service one of the modern domestics takes me approx 45 min to an hour. and one to one and a half hours if I strip it, (sometimes a bit longer depending on the make and model).

Commercial appliance take longer.
Things like Warm air units have more involved in the service. The electrical components do gather dust and that can be metallic in composition as a result of the environment the appliance is installed in, so definitely needs removing. The motors on those appliances tends to gather a lot and they should be inspected and cleaned out as necessary.

Hope this helps?

LP

 

[chris murphy]

Hello slpjslpj

The actual 'service' does depend on who you get.

It depends on your training, background, mentality, experience etc.

Some look at it that flue gas analysis tells you everything and as long as it reads well, that's good enough. Ten minutes of a job, runaway!

I can only speak for myself here but in your case (20 ear old RSF), it would be stripped cleaned inspected and tested fully. There are many reasons for this of course, one of them being that the thing is kept in a condition where it can be easily repaired and another would be to try and avoid/pre-empt, failures/faults.

As far as PCB's are concerned, they are normally in a box/case but I do tend to look inside the box to make sure there is nothing lurking that could cause an issue. If it looked unclean, yes I would clean it.
I do clean any electrical connections that look to be contaminated with dust or anything else for the reasons you stated.

It would take me one to two hours to properly service a Boiler like yours.

Modern Domestic Boilers are slightly different. Due to their design you don't tend to strip them as often but they should be inspected and tested once every 12 months. I tend to work on Vaillant Boilers more than any others (although I do work an all manufactured appliances), and to service one of the modern domestics takes me approx 45 min to an hour. and one to one and a half hours if I strip it, (sometimes a bit longer depending on the make and model).

Commercial appliance take longer.
Things like Warm air units have more involved in the service. The electrical components do gather dust and that can be metallic in composition as a result of the environment the appliance is installed in, so definitely needs removing. The motors on those appliances tends to gather a lot and they should be inspected and cleaned out as necessary.

Hope this helps?

LP

Hello Last plumber,

Good to read details about Boiler Servicing procedures from a Professional.

I totally agree with your comments about some `Boiler Engineers` background, training, experience and attitude - and the seemingly increasing reliance on Combustion Analyser results to avoid actually Servicing Gas Appliances.

Regards,

Chris

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Last Plumber.
I see that you are in Lancs. I wish you were in Kent.
As Chris says, it is indeed good to read your description of what you consider a service to mean. It's what I thought I've been paying for, but sadly not getting, and not just on the pcb/electrical cleaning.

As you say, it does seem to depend on who you get, but this baffles me. I find it difficult to understand why the definition of a boiler service can be so vague. Or more precisely, isn't actually defined quite tightly in the industry. Since my recent posts, I've been told face to face by a registered gas safe CH engineer, that a 'service' does not "legally" require the combustion cover to be removed. Clearly the word (verb) "service" these days, can mean anything the person doing the service choses to make it mean, forgetting - deliberately perhaps -- , that the word does not only mean to check something. But at least I know now, and in the future I know what questions to ask when I have my boiler serviced.

Thanks very much for replying.

 

[chris murphy]

Hello again Peter,

I don`t know if this happened recently but you have been advised incorrectly by the Gas Safe CH Engineer:

If it ever became a `Legal Issue` the definition of a `Boiler Service` would be that the Servicing procedures as defined in the Manufacturers Installation & Servicing Instructions were carried out - which definitely requires accessing the Combustion Chamber / Burner / Heat Exchanger etc.

Legally - If a person does not get a Service which carried out all of the items as specified in the Servicing procedure from the Manufacturers Installation & Servicing Instructions the Gas Engineer / The Gas Engineers Company would have committed `Fraud` by charging for a `Service`.

However - unless the Boiler had not been Serviced for a few years and was demonstrably `Dirty` within the Combustion Chamber - Heat Exchanger / Burner etc. after the charged for Service it would be difficult to prove - and proving it would require the services of another Gas Engineer to give a report on what was found when they checked the Service.

The Gas Safe Engineer who You spoke to must have been either confused with the requirements for a `Gas Appliance Safety Inspection` - which if the Gas Engineer was not inclined to actually open the Combustion Chamber to inspect the Burner / Heat Exchanger etc. - could be `Legally adhered to` by using a Combustion Analyser / Flue Gas Analyser - or he could have been deliberately giving you incorrect `information` ?

If everything else about the Boiler Installation was correct - and if the Analyser readings obtained showed that the Boiler`s Combustion was within the correct parameters and the Boiler was operating Safely that would comply with a `Gas Appliance Safety Inspection`.

BUT - that is NOT a `Boiler Service`.

I have spoken to Boiler Engineers from some large Gas Engineer Companies and been told that their employers actually stipulate that:

`If the Combustion Analyser readings are correct for the Boiler there is no need to access the Combustion Chamber and disassemble parts as the Appliance is working correctly / working Safely`.

I don`t know about British Gas regarding their Annual Breakdown Cover specifications - but I wonder what their `We will make sure that your Boiler is working Safely with Annual Inspections` entails ?

Probably a Combustion Analyser check - if the Boiler Combustion is operating correctly = `the Appliance is Safe`.

There must be some `Servicing` included - or at least documented [whether it is done or not] to keep to their own `Terms & Conditions` / to keep to their Breakdown Contract with their Customers.

Once again what I have written does not give a very positive impression of the Boiler Servicing sector of Gas Engineering.

Regards,

Chris

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,
Yes it was a recent conversation with a Gas service engineer, and it was in the context of a discussion about the servicing of my boiler. I can't quote him verbatim, but what you have written -- -- and I paraphrase, is just about what he told me.
" -- if the Gas Engineer was not inclined to actually open the Combustion Chamber to inspect the Burner / Heat Exchanger etc. - could be `Legally adhered to` by using a Combustion Analyser / Flue Gas Analyser - " ---- " If everything else about the Boiler Installation was correct - and if the Analyser readings obtained showed that the Boiler`s Combustion was within the correct parameters and the Boiler was operating Safely ".

I said I am paying for a service not just a safety check, and he said that was what I have been getting. It doesn't have to include all the items if there is no reason to suspect that other checks need to be made. Or words to that effect.

I've checked again to see what the terms and conditions say. They say "clean as 'necessary' --- ". So that leaves it up to the opinion of the visiting engineer. And it says if the FGA fails, then additional actions should be carried to according to manufacturers instructions. As they do not say specifically that they service the boiler according to the manufacturers instructions, it seems that my ignorance of exactly what they are contracted to, means I don't have a case to argue. But I do know now, and I won't be caught again.

No unfortunately I don't have photographs of my boiler internals, and as you say, unless I pay another firm of gas engineers to inspect my boiler and take the covers off, I can't get them. But it is something I may think about in light of all this. However, even if I did get someone else in to enable me to look and take pictures, and there was a degree of dust and dirt in the combustion chamber, it could still be argued as per the terms and conditions above, that it wasn't significant, and so not 'necessary' to clean it out, as long as it is deemed safe. So I'd just be wasting my money. However at the next service, I will make sure I'm there and that the covers are taken off for me to see the insides -- with a camera.

As you say, all this does indeed give a poor image of boiler servicing. But sadly that's how many sectors are today. Everything from poor gardening services to gas servicing. It's no wonder TV companies can make programes entitled "Rip off Britain". And no doubt it's unfair and makes life hard for those gas engineers who all get tarred by the same brush, even when they themselves do provide a thorough good value service.

 

[Last plumber]

As you say, it does seem to depend on who you get, but this baffles me. I find it difficult to understand why the definition of a boiler service can be so vague.

Hello again
I have uploaded one of the inspection and maintenance sheets from Vaillant for you to read. This is an example of the servicing procedure Chris has mentioned. This is for a modern Boiler. I am just giving an example to help you understand. In a case like yours, I would always do the full service and check the Burner and heat exchanger, cleaning them if necessary.

Those are the steps that the manufacturer (of Vaillant), obviously want an Engineer to carry out regularly. Other Manufacturers will have a similar set of requests/instructions.

There are other things that go hand in hand with this of course. For example, I personally always do a let-by and tightness test at the Meter before and after commencing work on any gas appliance or (domestic), installation along with recording the Working pressure at the meter and the appliance, for various reasons.

If you read this, you will understand why I mentioned the time involved and see why you cannot do this in 10 minutes.

Others will disagree with my opinion but I feel that if a customer is paying for a 'service' then they should get what they are paying for.

If I took my van in for a 'service' and they tested the emissions and gave it back, I would be annoyed.

 

[chris murphy]

Hello again Peter,

I would be interested in seeing Photos of your Boiler`s Combustion Chamber etc. if you could remember to come back to this thread in the future when your Boiler is Serviced.

As it is 20 years old seeing inside the chamber / how clean [or otherwise] it was should give Us some indication of whether it had a `decent Service including cleaning` when the last one was done.

Perhaps You could keep one of the Forum reply notification Emails and use the Link to come back to the thread and post some Photos.

It would be good to `Update` the discussion.

Hopefully the Boiler will not be `Dirty` inside the Combustion chamber - but if it is the Photos would be good to reinforce the often disgraceful situation about `Boiler Servicing` that we have been corresponding about on here.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Jane Carter]

You are a gas safe engineer or what? I really have confusion with you.

 

[chris murphy]

You are a gas safe engineer or what? I really have confusion with you.

Hello Jane Carter,

What is it about my detailed messages about Servicing Gas Appliances that makes You confused as to whether I am a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer ?

Have You seen my details at the bottom of every one of my messages:

`HEATING ENGINEER - PLUMBER - REGISTERED GAS ENGINEER / HEATING, PLUMBING & GAS CONTRACTOR`

Chris