Boris Has It ...

telectrix · Mar 29, 2020

davesparks said:
Did they? You have proof that they ignored it I assume?
How long does all this equipment last in storage, and how much should they spend on equipment, maintainence and storage for the 'just in case supplies'

They could have filled a warehouse with ventilators and oxygen concentrators after that 2016 report and now when they pull them out of storage 4 years later half of them don't work because they've been sat idle for so long.

if they were made by Dyson, they,d be broke 3 days after the 12 months warranty expired anyway.

Pretty Mouth · Mar 29, 2020

davesparks said:
I've googled it and found a lot of media articles about it, which are hardly reliable sources of information.
Other information that I've found indicate that it is just a small part of a much wider plan intended to see the NHS through all manner of possible emergencies, including strikes, far worse viruses than this, major accidents, natural disasters, terrorist attacks, fuel shortages and other things.

When I find proper reports on exercise cygnus I'll read up on it further of course.

Finding official reports seems to be difficult, but here is something that may fit the bill:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=18&ved=2ahUKEwj2zovTlcDoAhUAQEEAHVooCNc4ChAWMAd6BAgJEAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rotherhamccg.nhs.uk%2FDownloads%2FGoverning%2520Body%2520Papers%2FJuly%25202017%2520final%2F7b%2520%2520Rotherham%2520Health%2520Protection%2520Annual%2520Report.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1zDVZrFIVaeZqfEjiZrTrH

P29 is where you want to be looking:

davesparks · Mar 29, 2020

Pretty Mouth said:
Finding official reports seems to be difficult, but here is something that may fit the bill:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=18&ved=2ahUKEwj2zovTlcDoAhUAQEEAHVooCNc4ChAWMAd6BAgJEAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rotherhamccg.nhs.uk%2FDownloads%2FGoverning%2520Body%2520Papers%2FJuly%25202017%2520final%2F7b%2520%2520Rotherham%2520Health%2520Protection%2520Annual%2520Report.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1zDVZrFIVaeZqfEjiZrTrH

P29 is where you want to be looking:

Bottom of 29,top of 30 seem to suggest to me that it's not a lack of PPE but a lack of knowledge of the supply chain or how to get the PPE from national stockpiles.

Pretty Mouth · Mar 29, 2020

Well, the PPE isn't there is it. Switch on the news, you'll soon see yet another healthcare professional testifying to that fact.

It's difficult for me to see the government's response to this in a positive light. We all watched the pandemic grow in China, and their people started dropping like flies, and it spread beyond Chinas borders to other nations where their people started dropping like flies, and then it arrived here, and it spread and we all know what is going to happen. It didn't happen overnight. Any simpleton could have predicted this.

Why did our leaders wait until the pandemic had already taken hold here before taking action? Why did they wait until just 2 weeks ago to request industry start thinking about building ventilators, knowing full well how unprepared the NHS is for this. Why have they ordered 10000 ventilators from a company that doesn't build ventilators, when there are companies that do, and are all ready to do so? Why did they miss the deadline for the EU procurement scheme, blaming it on a communications mix up? Why weren't they stockpiling medicine, PPE, and testing kits back in January?

andyb · Mar 29, 2020

davesparks said:
I've googled it and found a lot of media articles about it, which are hardly reliable sources of information.

When you say 'media articles' you mean just about every paper out there, including the Tory supporting Sun, Mail, Telegraph and others. Maybe they are not normally the most reliable source generally, and I'm like you I need to check and check before I believe things, especially if it comes from a politician. But unless you are at every cabinet meeting or read every government document then you do have to trust some sources eventually.

davesparks said:
Bottom of 29,top of 30 seem to suggest to me that it's not a lack of PPE but a lack of knowledge of the supply chain or how to get the PPE from national stockpiles.

That's just a summary for Rotherham, but you're right, bottom of page 29

They've had over 3 years and have failed to do this.

davesparks · Mar 29, 2020

Pretty Mouth said:
Well, the PPE isn't there is it. Switch on the news, you'll soon see yet another healthcare professional testifying to that fact.

It's difficult for me to see the government's response to this in a positive light. We all watched the pandemic grow in China, and their people started dropping like flies, and it spread beyond Chinas borders to other nations where their people started dropping like flies, and then it arrived here, and it spread and we all know what is going to happen. It didn't happen overnight. Any simpleton could have predicted this.

Why did our leaders wait until the pandemic had already taken hold here before taking action? Why did they wait until just 2 weeks ago to request industry start thinking about building ventilators, knowing full well how unprepared the NHS is for this. Why have they ordered 10000 ventilators from a company that doesn't build ventilators, when there are companies that do, and are all ready to do so? Why did they miss the deadline for the EU procurement scheme, blaming it on a communications mix up? Why weren't they stockpiling medicine, PPE, and testing kits back in January?

I don't know if it is there or not, I know that there is a shortage in some places, I don't know where or how widespread the shortage is.

Do we all know what is going to happen? I certainly don't as I cannot see the future, I know what is likely to happen.
A knee jerk reaction trying to force the current lockdown situation a few eeks ago would have been far less effective, after the build up to this many people are still flouting the regulations, looking for loopholes and ways to dodge the rules.
You have to consider the psychology of the general public and what needs to happen for the government to manipulate people into staying at home when they are needed to. A total lockdown out of the blue will be rejected by a lot of people and there simply aren't enough police to enforce it.
They need to build the fear and bring it in gradually otherwise it will not have the desired effect.

I don't know enough about the situation with ventilators, they announced that they were asking industry to produce more a couple of weeks ago, how long before that had they actually started the process? Did they hold back the information from the public to reduce fear and panic.

As far as I know our laboratories created one of the first testing kits back in January, it's pretty hard to stockpile something before it has been invented. The genome of the virus was only published in January, they couldn't do much work on it before that.

What medecine do you suggest they should have stockpiled in January? What medecine did they stockpile?

The studies into the effectiveness of things like hydroxychloroquine aren't complete yet, theyre pushing them through quickly, but studies need to be completed properly.

I believe vaccines were developed within hours of the genome being published but full testing won't be complete for many months yet, they might be done by the end of the year. Testing can't be rushed,

DPG · Mar 29, 2020

As DS says, what medicine do you say they should have been stockpiling in January?

andyb · Mar 29, 2020

Who's suggested that they should have stockpiled medicine? no one as far as I'm aware, certainly not me.
Where on earth did that come from?

davesparks · Mar 29, 2020

DPG said:
As DS says, what medicine do you say they should have been stockpiling in January?

Well 6 patients given hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin recovered quickly in a study of 30 patients in China which I think was published sometime in February.
Maybe we should have stockpiled that in January?
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andyb said:
Who's suggested that they should have stockpiled medicine? no one as far as I'm aware, certainly not me.
Where on earth did that come from?

Post number 34, last sentence.

DPG · Mar 29, 2020

andyb said:
Who's suggested that they should have stockpiled medicine? no one as far as I'm aware, certainly not me.
Where on earth did that come from?

Post 34 clearly states it.

andyb · Mar 29, 2020

Like I said not me, but you're right it has been suggested and I agree, you can't stockpile medicine for some unknown virus.

But it's still taking away from the point re PPE and letting the government off the hook.

DPG · Mar 29, 2020

andyb said:
Like I said not me, but you're right it has been suggested and I agree, you can't stockpile medicine for some unknown virus.

But it's still taking away from the point re PPE and letting the government off the hook.

I know it wasn't you. Dave had replied to PMouth's post.

snowhead · Mar 29, 2020

Signing up with the E.U for ventilators would have been pointless.
Guess who would have been at the end of the list for delivery and we'd probably have had to pay up front.

3 years ago or even 1 year ago no one would have known what the infection was going to be and what the appropriate PPE would be for it.

Same with the ventilators, we could have had 10000 in storage when what we actually needed was 10000 kidney dialasis machines.

There are no medicines associated with Covid 19 recovery to have been able to stockpile.

The statement today was that delivery of the following list of PPE has almost been completed to 58000 locations around the U.K including Care homes;

170 million masks, 42.8 million gloves, 13.7 million aprons, 182,000 gowns, almost 10 million items of cleaning equipment and 2.3 million pairs of eye protective equipment.

And presumably deliveries will continue, to top up what's used.

davesparks · Mar 29, 2020

andyb said:
Like I said not me, but you're right it has been suggested and I agree, you can't stockpile medicine for some unknown virus.

But it's still taking away from the point re PPE and letting the government off the hook.

OK, so what PPE did they need to stockpile, for a virus they didn't know was coming or what type of infection it would cause?

A couple of months ago headlines about millions of pounds worth of medical face masks reaching the end of their use by date sitting in a warehouse gathering dust would have met with uproar.
How much would 10,000 ventilators in a warehouse having to be tested and maintained for years on end cost?

If the government just stockpiled every piece of lifesaving equipment that might be needed then how much money would it cost? How much would be left in the pot to pay everybody's 80% wages?

How much extra tax would you be happy to pay to fill warehouses with medical equipment that might, or might not, be needed?

Pretty Mouth · Mar 29, 2020

You're right guys, you've got me there. There is no medicine certified for use against the coronavirus. I was thinking of medicines to treat secondary infections, but I don't really know enough about it to comment. Apologies, and above all else, you are correct.

My post did not say the government needed to stockpile every piece of equipment for every eventuality indefinitely. It said they could see what was coming from January, having watched it all unfold in China, and have had chance to act much sooner.

There is not enough PPE to go round. What is there has been diverted to the NHS, and care homes, nursing homes etc are missing out. Turn on BBC news 24 and sooner or later you will see this.

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