Borrowed Neutral on lighting circuit

[MDJ]

you cant issue a EIC for an installation that is unsafe......all faults need to be sorted out which is what I have done
The only problem that is there is .....a wiring problem from when it was installed 40+years ago which is how they used to wire houses nicking the neutral from downstairs for the landing light
an EICR is needed by the customer

Agreed, so if it is unsafe do you just energise it and tell the customer a EICR is required then and fail it that way?, your wrong and thats that, if you change a distribution board you need to add all circuits from that board to the certificate, rollocks to the EICR, I would have you in court if you ignored the existing circuits in my board and the house burned down, once you have changed the board and identified any faulty circuits it is the customers problem not yours, to suggest an EICR is the way over it is pathetic and makes me fuc**ING ANGRY, don't put the ownus on existing circuits after a new DB change on anyone else, New board change EIC, checking existing board the EICR, end of.

 

[KAS1]

I can assure you in the 70s it wasn't the thing to do "they used to wire houses nicking the neutral from downstairs for the landing light" only the cowboys would do that and yes there were cowboys in the 1970s as well lol

you cant issue a EIC for an installation that is unsafe......all faults need to be sorted out which is what I have done
The only problem that is there is .....a wiring problem from when it was installed 40+years ago which is how they used to wire houses nicking the neutral from downstairs for the landing light
an EICR is needed by the customer

 

[Toonlad]

I give up

 

[Guitarist]

If the client won't let you sort out the borrowed neutral then your only recourse is to put both circuits on one MCB and make a note on the EIC. Not ideal, but as long as the load isn't going to cause the MCB to trip then it will at least be safe. The downside of this is obviously that in the event of one RCD operating, you will lose all lighting.
You do need to fill out an EIC for the CU change, there's no getting away from that, and then if the client wants an EICR as well, this will be a separate report. At least if you do it at the same time, you will already have the readings for your schedule part.
I can only stress that if you make sure you do some basic pre-change tests before committing to a CU change, you can save yourself a whole world of pain later on, as in this case.

 

[telectrix]

just like to point out that it's usually the line conductor that's taken from the downstairs circuit, not the neutral. it was done so that only a T/E was needed for strappers between the switches ratrher than using 3 core/E.

 

[Rikmac]

Agreed, so if it is unsafe do you just energise it and tell the customer a EICR is required then and fail it that way?, your wrong and thats that, if you change a distribution board you need to add all circuits from that board to the certificate, rollocks to the EICR, I would have you in court if you ignored the existing circuits in my board and the house burned down, once you have changed the board and identified any faulty circuits it is the customers problem not yours, to suggest an EICR is the way over it is pathetic and makes me fuc**ING ANGRY, don't put the ownus on existing circuits after a new DB change on anyone else, New board change EIC, checking existing board the EICR, end of.

Right lets get this stright.....

The installation failed a EICR done by someone else.......The customer who didnt know why it had failed asked me..... to which i told her that the fuseboard,earthing and some other bits were needed to bring the installation upto the current regs and would issue her with an installation cert ......she told me that she wanted a EICR that was ok to show other buyers
there is no point filling another one out saying "fuse-board,earthing and other faults are there" so I have put the defects right

She still wants a EICR to show buyers and I have given her one free of charge as I have tested the installation as part of the EIC

I asked a question that was answered in post 2

I resent the replys that say "horse,a way round not doing a EIC ,cowboy,court" you have totally got the wrong end of the stick
There are loads of houses with borrowed neutrals on the stairs and its not a fire risk its a shock risk! if only 1 circuit is isolated and lights are energized on the other

Basicly the 2nd verified what i thought and would have checked with the niceic if they had been open today
Im not a cowboy a value my work highly.......Im not trying to rip anybody off
all circuits have been tested and i have made the customer aware of the problem told her the options and asked her what to do
I have doubled up the circuits marked it on the fuse-board and noted it on both test sheets
To be padantic.......you could engrave the circuit with "Isolate 2 supplys present" etc

 

[Rikmac]

but how can you give a EIC for the whole installation if you didnt wire it? An EIC for the board change definitely but i wouldnt certify the installation too, just report.

If you change the board you are working on all circuits so a EIC has to be issued

You list what you have done ie Install 12 way dual RCD Fuse-board

 

[Rikmac]

If the client won't let you sort out the borrowed neutral then your only recourse is to put both circuits on one MCB and make a note on the EIC. Not ideal, but as long as the load isn't going to cause the MCB to trip then it will at least be safe. The downside of this is obviously that in the event of one RCD operating, you will lose all lighting.
You do need to fill out an EIC for the CU change, there's no getting away from that, and then if the client wants an EICR as well, this will be a separate report. At least if you do it at the same time, you will already have the readings for your schedule part.
I can only stress that if you make sure you do some basic pre-change tests before committing to a CU change, you can save yourself a whole world of pain later on, as in this case.

Thanks.........someone who gets it

 

[Rikmac]

just like to point out that it's usually the line conductor that's taken from the downstairs circuit, not the neutral. it was done so that only a T/E was needed for strappers between the switches ratrher than using 3 core/E.

yes your right but the neutral will the have been taken from the upstairs circut

 

[Toonlad]

Right lets get this stright.....

The installation failed a EICR done by someone else.......The customer who didnt know why it had failed asked me..... to which i told her that the fuseboard,earthing and some other bits were needed to bring the installation upto the current regs and would issue her with an installation cert ......she told me that she wanted a EICR that was ok to show other buyers
there is no point filling another one out saying "fuse-board,earthing and other faults are there" so I have put the defects right

She still wants a EICR to show buyers and I have given her one free of charge as I have tested the installation as part of the EIC

I asked a question that was answered in post 2

I resent the replys that say "horse,a way round not doing a EIC ,cowboy,court" you have totally got the wrong end of the stick
There are loads of houses with borrowed neutrals on the stairs and its not a fire risk its a shock risk! if only 1 circuit is isolated and lights are energized on the other

Basicly the 2nd verified what i thought and would have checked with the niceic if they had been open today
Im not a cowboy a value my work highly.......Im not trying to rip anybody off
all circuits have been tested and i have made the customer aware of the problem told her the options and asked her what to do
I have doubled up the circuits marked it on the fuse-board and noted it on both test sheets
To be padantic.......you could engrave the circuit with "Isolate 2 supplys present" etc

I think we all could be Pedantic,There is a few things you have stated above that i dont agree with. But that is for another time.

If we get back on track you would have them lights in one breaker now and condition report handed over, and your customer will be all happy now, sitting in the comfort of her home eating fish this good friday, knowing you have been articulate in your approach to this test and inspection, and she will be worry free now.. Well done Rikmac - good job !!

 

[IQ Electrical]

Rikmac, all this thread does is show the importance of a giving a good, thorough description of the scenario in the original post.

I agree that the borrowed neutral scenario is present in thousands of properties in the UK and it sounds like you've done the right thing-you can't force a client to have work done if a fault is identified.

 

[Rikmac]

Rikmac, all this thread does is show the importance of a giving a good, thorough description of the scenario in the original post.

I agree that the borrowed neutral scenario is present in thousands of properties in the UK and it sounds like you've done the right thing-you can't force a client to have work done if a fault is identified.

Yes IQ you are soooo right.....just read back to 1st post and I can see how people thought I was doing a board change on a EICR I was nt clear ....Lesson learnt

us sparkies are like a tramp on chips when theres cowboys about lol

 

[Eggster71]

To be honest, I'd have explained to the customer that an EIC is a way better document than an EICR, bearing in mind there are no limitations to the testing and inspection, and that along with her shiny new cert she'll have a nice part P notification. You would also have saved yourself ticking and writing N/A several million times!!
Although in reality I normally insist on doing an EICR before I even look at changing a board, then you and the customer are aware of any faults that need rectifying, the EIC scope of work will then state, "rectify all faults found on EICR serial no xxxxxx and install new CCU." That way she's got her EICR and n EIC that states that the installation has been repaired so any buyer will see that she's made the effort to make sure everything's OK, including a summary of the installation that would not necessarily be mentioned in the EIC along with a paper trail showing what work was done. Bit like a service history on a car....

 

[Guitarist]

To be honest, I'd have explained to the customer that an EIC is a way better document than an EICR, bearing in mind there are no limitations to the testing and inspection, and that along with her shiny new cert she'll have a nice part P notification. You would also have saved yourself ticking and writing N/A several million times!!
Although in reality I normally insist on doing an EICR before I even look at changing a board, then you and the customer are aware of any faults that need rectifying, the EIC scope of work will then state, "rectify all faults found on EICR serial no xxxxxx and install new CCU." That way she's got her EICR and n EIC that states that the installation has been repaired so any buyer will see that she's made the effort to make sure everything's OK, including a summary of the installation that would not necessarily be mentioned in the EIC along with a paper trail showing what work was done. Bit like a service history on a car....

If the customer is willing to pay for a full EICR before a board change, then that's all well and good. However, most just want a new CU, so I carry out the obvious tests before-hand free of charge.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

If the customer is willing to pay for a full EICR before a board change, then that's all well and good. However, most just want a new CU, so I carry out the obvious tests before-hand free of charge.

What are the obvious tests you do beforehand if they're not a full EICR or is it a case of a full test but not issuing a report unless you come across a fault?

 

[Deleted member 72666]

What are the obvious tests you do beforehand if they're not a full EICR or is it a case of a full test but not issuing a report unless you come across a fault?

Sorry! Ignore that one as I've just found and read the sticky.

 

[Guitarist]

Sorry! Ignore that one as I've just found and read the sticky.

Good man.

 

[chilliwilly]

EICR indentifying condition of installation and any remedial work, ie codes 1, 2, 3, and FI. Code 1s, and 2s, remedying to give a satisfactory report. And code 3s either remedying or noted on EIC in comments on existing installation after fitting new board. As with MWC.

 

[Dayo]

i have been lucky in the past where there is a mains smoke in the hallway linked in three core to a smoke on the landing I have put the smokes on with the ground floor lights then linked the smoke detector neutral onto the landing light removing the borrowed neutral

 

[trev]

i have been lucky in the past where there is a mains smoke in the hallway linked in three core to a smoke on the landing I have put the smokes on with the ground floor lights then linked the smoke detector neutral onto the landing light removing the borrowed neutral

How does that work? The smoke has a neutral in the three core interlinking it to the upstairs one so how does that get rid of an existing borrowed neutral? In my opinion you're adding to the problem

 

[Tridentsystems]

I guess he's common inch smoke line and neutral with ground floor lights. Disconnecting existing neutral from landing light, and using smoke cct neutral for upstairs light. Not sure I would be happy to do this

- - - Updated - - -

Typo. Commoning not common inch ! Bloody predictive text

 

[Smellypants1234]

My personal opinion is that a ecir should be done before and works take place. Weather the house is being sold or not a board change should not happen until you know the system is safe and compliant to handle it.
I mean you check your parachute after you’ve jumped.

 

[littlespark]

A lot of names on this thread I don’t recognise…. But then a lot can change in 11 years.