Borrowed Neutral on lighting circuit

[MDJ]

Maybe he is doing a EIC for the board change and an EICR for the installation.

Can't see that, if you change the board you have to test the connected circuits as part of the EIC, going to check the regs now, got to go out to the van haha, Tels not wrong, if ever often but in this case I feel an EICR is wrong with a board change.

 

[gooner85]

but how can you give a EIC for the whole installation if you didnt wire it? An EIC for the board change definitely but i wouldnt certify the installation too, just report.

 

[MDJ]

Agreed it's a toughy, but if you connect circuits to a new distribution board then you need to report the readings on the certificate, it is going to be tough to tell the judge if the house burns down it isn't your fault if you connect a damaged circuit to the new board, I do get your point, but just can't agree this time TBH.

 

[telectrix]

agree with you, mike. EIC for the board change. customer may have requested an EICR, in which case do both, as long as you're getting paid to.

 

[Rikmac]

Why are you doing an EICR,, after you changed the board, and why at time of board change was faults not rectified.

Hi its what the customer wanted as a buyer had one done and it failed then buyer pulled out of sale but my customer didnt have a copy of the report......as soon as I saw the job
old wylex board and no equipotential bonding and some other minor problems it turned into an install job so installation cert issued, customer still wanted EICR to show other buyers

Do you start rewiring lighting circuits everytime you do a board change? as most houses that need a board change have a borrowed neutral on hall/landing 2 way
I asked the question for a way of rectifying the fault as installation and EICR are both been done together and without having to rewire

 

[MDJ]

Do you start rewiring lighting circuits everytime you do a board change?

No but we put the results on the EIC certificate and if it fails we need to urgently let the home owner know why and how to rectify, would you really energise an existing circuit on a newly fitted board even if it was dangerous and say will never mind I will add comments regarding this to a EICR? come on FFS, whats happening here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Toonlad]

Or am i being cynical here but is this the new way around doing board changes. change the board go back later and pretend the board has been there since 2008 and there is no record of cert, so we do an eicr, and you dont have to be registered to do them.

Rikmac In no way am i implying this is what you have done.


Also when you change the board you have changed the circuit characteristics with rcd,mcbs and even rcbos. This is why you test the circuits as the efli values allowed from a 3036 is higher than that of its equivalant type b 60898. so they may be higher than should be for the type of protrection device fitted.

 

[Rikmac]

No but we put the results on the EIC certificate and if it fails we need to urgently let the home owner know why and how to rectify, would you really energise an existing circuit on a newly fitted board even if it was dangerous and say will never mind I will add comments regarding this to a EICR? come on FFS, whats happening here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you cant issue a EIC for an installation that is unsafe......all faults need to be sorted out which is what I have done
The only problem that is there is .....a wiring problem from when it was installed 40+years ago which is how they used to wire houses nicking the neutral from downstairs for the landing light
an EICR is needed by the customer

 

[Toonlad]

Hi its what the customer wanted as a buyer had one done and it failed then buyer pulled out of sale but my customer didnt have a copy of the report......as soon as I saw the job
old wylex board and no equipotential bonding and some other minor problems it turned into an install job so installation cert issued, customer still wanted EICR to show other buyers

Do you start rewiring lighting circuits everytime you do a board change? as most houses that need a board change have a borrowed neutral on hall/landing 2 way
I asked the question for a way of rectifying the fault as installation and EICR are both been done together and without having to rewire

Your answer was given in posts 2,3 and 4.

All you do is get both lighting circuits and put them into one mcb. There is no regulation saying you cant do it. Its just that its no practical. But any electrician worth his salt would rectify the borrowed neutral and keep the two circuits entegrity seperate.

 

[Rikmac]

replyin to my own post......Im new here

 

[MDJ]

you cant issue a EIC for an installation that is unsafe......all faults need to be sorted out which is what I have done
The only problem that is there is .....a wiring problem from when it was installed 40+years ago which is how they used to wire houses nicking the neutral from downstairs for the landing light
an EICR is needed by the customer

Agreed, so if it is unsafe do you just energise it and tell the customer a EICR is required then and fail it that way?, your wrong and thats that, if you change a distribution board you need to add all circuits from that board to the certificate, rollocks to the EICR, I would have you in court if you ignored the existing circuits in my board and the house burned down, once you have changed the board and identified any faulty circuits it is the customers problem not yours, to suggest an EICR is the way over it is pathetic and makes me fuc**ING ANGRY, don't put the ownus on existing circuits after a new DB change on anyone else, New board change EIC, checking existing board the EICR, end of.

 

[KAS1]

I can assure you in the 70s it wasn't the thing to do "they used to wire houses nicking the neutral from downstairs for the landing light" only the cowboys would do that and yes there were cowboys in the 1970s as well lol

you cant issue a EIC for an installation that is unsafe......all faults need to be sorted out which is what I have done
The only problem that is there is .....a wiring problem from when it was installed 40+years ago which is how they used to wire houses nicking the neutral from downstairs for the landing light
an EICR is needed by the customer

 

[Toonlad]

I give up

 

[Guitarist]

If the client won't let you sort out the borrowed neutral then your only recourse is to put both circuits on one MCB and make a note on the EIC. Not ideal, but as long as the load isn't going to cause the MCB to trip then it will at least be safe. The downside of this is obviously that in the event of one RCD operating, you will lose all lighting.
You do need to fill out an EIC for the CU change, there's no getting away from that, and then if the client wants an EICR as well, this will be a separate report. At least if you do it at the same time, you will already have the readings for your schedule part.
I can only stress that if you make sure you do some basic pre-change tests before committing to a CU change, you can save yourself a whole world of pain later on, as in this case.

 

[telectrix]

just like to point out that it's usually the line conductor that's taken from the downstairs circuit, not the neutral. it was done so that only a T/E was needed for strappers between the switches ratrher than using 3 core/E.