Borrowed neutral on split load board

[Brightonbill]

I have a client with what appears to be an intermitent fault on the lighting, but trips the power.

The installation has a 16th edition board with sockets on the RCD side, and lighting on the other side as usual.

Occasionally when the landing light is switched the RCD trips on the socket side. Would a borrowed neutral cause this. The lighting circuit itself has RCBO on it that doesn't trip; does the RCBO have anything to do with it.

I haven't checked for a borrowed neutral on the lighting yet, but even if there was one I can't see why that would affect the other RCD side.

Many thanks in advance

 

[mainline]

It could be a neutral that's borrowed off the other rcds neutral bar, which would cause an imbalance.

 

[Brightonbill]

It could be a neutral that's borrowed off the other rcds neutral bar, which would cause an imbalance.

It's a common neutral bar in this instance.

 

[oscar21]

It cant be a common neutral bar, the RCD has a neutral bar and the RCBO neutral goes into the unprotected bar.

 

[Brightonbill]

Good point. I was convinced it was common. Old Volex board. I’ll check it tomorrow.

 

[mainline]

Good point. I was convinced it was common. Old Volex board. I’ll check it tomorrow.

More than likely, the rcbo has its N in the Rcds N bar.

Does the rcbos lighting circuit stay on when the rcd trips ?

 

[davesparks]

Occasionally when the landing light is switched the RCD trips on the socket side. Would a borrowed neutral cause this. The lighting circuit itself has RCBO on it that doesn't trip; does the RCBO have anything to do with it.

When did this fault first occur?

If it occurred immediately after the RCBO was installed then it may have something to do with it.
If it occurred immediately after some work was carried out on the installation that could have created a borrowed neutral situation then it may be that.

If the fault first occurred recently without being obviously linked to recent electrical work being carried out then it is pretty unlikely to be caused by those things.
Borrowed neutrals don't occur on their own, nor do they sit there not causing tripping for months/years before one day suddenly causing problems.
Likewise an RCBO won't sit there for months/years then one day suddenly start causing a different RCD to trip.

What you have described sounds symptomatic of a N-E fault, I'd be carrying out testing for that first off.

 

[davesparks]

More than likely, the rcbo has its N in the Rcds N bar.

Only if the fault started to occur when the RCBO was installed, and it seems unlikely that this would cause it to only trip occasionally.

 

[Brightonbill]

Well, I’m the second person on this job apparently. Several other electricians from a contractor looked at it 3 years ago. Unfortunately the clients are elderly and it’s difficult to understand what the events and time lines are.

The CU has split neutral bars which I neglected to see previously. So apologies for the red herring there.

I did a wander lead on the hall and stairs lighting to see if there was a borrowed neutral but all appeared OK.

Then I combined all of the lighting circuits into one MCB bypassing the RCBO circuit, but it still tripped.

My last attempt was to temporarily move all lighting circuits over to the RCD side and I thought this had it cracked. But sadly after a while it tripped the RCD.

All IR tests are OK, not outstanding but lowest is 18meg, so I’ve assumed it’s not that.

Now baffled.

 

[MJPD29]

Have you got an earth leakage tester? You could clamp it and see what leakage is at any given time and ramp test the rcd to see what it is actually tripping at. You could find that it’s close to its limit and turning on a light in that lighting circuit is pushing it over the edge.

 

[Penguin]

I have a client with what appears to be an intermitent fault on the lighting, but trips the power.

The installation has a 16th edition board with sockets on the RCD side, and lighting on the other side as usual.

Occasionally when the landing light is switched the RCD trips on the socket side. Would a borrowed neutral cause this. The lighting circuit itself has RCBO on it that doesn't trip; does the RCBO have anything to do with it.

I haven't checked for a borrowed neutral on the lighting yet, but even if there was one I can't see why that would affect the other RCD side.

Many thanks in advance

How old is the wiring (not the DB).?
Is the landing light on a 2way switch set up.?

Is there only one single module RCBO for the light or 2. ? ( upstairs & downstairs) ?

Let me know

 

[Brightonbill]

My guess is that the wiring is late 60s early 70s.

The landing is 2 way, and the hall is 2 way. Both are on the same RCBO which never trips, only the RCD on the socket side of the board.

As I’ve combined all the circuits into one and put them on the RCD side I thought that would eliminate any possible cross connection/borrowed neutral.

So I’m looking at a fault rather than a cross connection I think.

 

[timhoward]

It may the the photo....but double check the count of live conductors vs neutral conductors on the RCD side.

Both are on the same RCBO which never trips,

Side thought - does that RCBO actually work?

Have you tried turning everything off and checking continuity between the N bars, and continuity between the top of each breaker ( in the off position) and the top of every other breaker?

Normally if there's a N-E fault on the RCD side and another unknown load driving current through the fault, the load in question would have to be connected 'somehow' to downstream of the RCD.

But a minor N-E fault on the RCD side, and a N-E fault on the non-RCD side can cause fun, e.g. a cooker element, or even that lighting circuit if the RCBO doesn't work.

Being honest as it's a Protek CU with a Volex RCD and a Niglon RCBO, it might be quicker to start again with a DP RCBO board fully testing each circuit and checking for interconnections as you go. Even if you miss the fault the DP RCBO's will show you where the problem is. I understand that budget may not allow this though.

 

[Brightonbill]

Thanks. I’ll be back again to have a discussion with the client about a new board. As always they just want it fixed NOW, and for nothing.

 

[MJPD29]

Thanks. I’ll be back again to have a discussion with the client about a new board. As always they just want it fixed NOW, and for nothing.

Have you tested the current earth leakage and/or ramp tested the rcd?

 

[Penguin]

My guess is that the wiring is late 60s early 70s.

The landing is 2 way, and the hall is 2 way. Both are on the same RCBO which never trips, only the RCD on the socket side of the board.

As I’ve combined all the circuits into one and put them on the RCD side I thought that would eliminate any possible cross connection/borrowed neutral.

So I’m looking at a fault rather than a cross connection I think.

Why are there so many different Manufacturers Breakers in the DB.??

 

[Brightonbill]

Why are there so many different Manufacturers Breakers in the DB.??

Why are there so many different Manufacturers Breakers in the DB.??

Can’t really answer that one. I have a feeling that the RCBO was part of an en-suite installation.

As for the Volex I don’t know. Possibly a fault?

 

[Brightonbill]

Have you tested the current earth leakage and/or ramp tested the rcd?

No. I did a standard auto test which was fine. I’ll give it a ramp rest tomorrow and check the earth leakage.