Britain Leave the European Union (Please be polite with other people's views)

[Darkwood]

Clear documented correlation recorded showing public opinion of EU decreases when anti EU articles published in right wing press like a Daily Mail.
What Domocratic Rights have been eroded?

What about the other way around though, millions of EU money invested into our education system, to promote EU ideology, Pro EU representatives making regular speeches at Universities and Colleges while Anti EU ideology is is both suppressed and denied when requested.
The EU has withdrawn party funding for Anti EU groups even though it has to be impartial to the funding of them.
The EU also has its fingers in the pie of our media like the BBC which is why they continue to give biased reporting with terms like crashing out when this has actually no meaning, the WTO is a deal in itself.
What about Soros the billionaire who is pumping millions into pro EU groups with the intentions to frustrate the democratic decision, Soros has direct links to Gina Millers Pro EU group she set up, although she has distanced herself from the group now it makes one wonder who payed her legal bills as she refused to divulge such info' when she contended parliament on a meaningful vote, luckily it has backfired because it blocked a deal that would have seen us tied into the customs union indefinitely and at the mercy of any laws they made without any tabled response.. guessing she didn't expect her interference would be the key to blocking a deal she would have been happy with.

What I am getting at is you respond with a daily rag which is clearly politically position and they do not deny it, what is worrying is all the millions pumped into pro EU projects and groups to sway the public opinion that are not clear and transparent.

Prior to the Brexit vote the EU were blocked from introducing pro EU literature into our junior schools as this was seen as an attempt to brainwash the new generation with the eventual goal of off realising the idea of a EU superstate (which they now have admitted) and preparing the future generation to be voting yes, the reason many of the students are Pro EU nowadays is because many further education systems are swamped with teachers who are pro EU and if you just look around many of the universities it won't take long before you spot pro EU propaganda... you see not just in these institutes but everywhere, the union jack everyday replaced by the EU flag on millions of registration plates across the country, it is subtle attempts like this that are forced onto us that slowly to subconsciously sway our opinion, the exact same reason business spend millions on advertising because it has a subconscious influence, this in the long term helps suppress Anti EU opinion.

Unfortunately public opinion changed for many reasons and this opened the whole EU can of worms and people started to realise just exactly what the EU is and why we would be better of out of it, we are not alone, the rise of Anti EU attitudes is flooding Europe and this is not because of lies and propaganda, it is because the EU has been dictating to countries and ignoring their democratic decisions.

 

[telectrix]

wonder how many UK motorists would have had that EU flag on their car reg. plates if it had been a swastika? a pig with a different name is still a pig.

 

[Darkwood]

1/ 350 million on big red bus

OK yes, but the bus was meant to be an example of what the money could be used for not a literal statement but it been ambiguous it was suddenly jumped on by remainers, seriously, did you believe it meant we would divert all the money into one body if we left or as it was intended to mean, use the money to aid our own interests.
2/ We can't control our borders

No we cannot, we can implement restrictions on access to certain services but we cannot stop the free flow of EU member states who have access to and are fighting for the same jobs we are, this has driven down wages across the board.
3/ We can't make our own laws

We can make our laws but as long as they do not interfere with or contradict any EU laws, this leaves us with very limited scope, many EU laws are dictated in the interests of Europe as an whole and have negative effects for the UK yet we cannot do anything about it.
When new EU laws and legislation are introduced we get very little say and it is very rare our objections lead to a solution in our favour, more often the not we are out voted and have to accept them.
4/ They need our trade more than we need theirs

This is a 50/50 - the EU is a much bigger entity than the UK so percentage wise the EU trades considerable less of its total than visa versa, but this cannot be put down to a percentage of trade or even the deficit difference, there are many southern EU member states like Spain that rely heavily on the UK with us been the one of the top export markets for them, Spain has a negative economical turnover, it buys way more than it sells, this puts it in a very vulnerable position to Brexit, that and the fact we invest billions into the country means a bad deal could ultimately cause Spain to economically topple, given it already has massively high youth unemployment and massive EU debts it cannot pay off it could as could a few other countries be a catalyst that pulls down the whole EU and Euro.
The EU has recently stopped a trillion plus bond buy up which it brought in after the crash, this was to stop the Euro failing but the bond buy up can no longer be funded and it desired effects were not realised so the EU as a whole are not as comfortable as they would like you to think, economists know this all to well hence EU investment from external sources has fallen sharply while UK invested hit record highs in 2017 and are still holding strong even in the adversity of Brexit and uncertainty.
5/ We can't stop Turkey jouning and there are 80 mllion Turks headng this way.

The only reason this didn't actually occur was a change in circumstances, the ill fated decision of Merkel to open the floodgates led to a big fall out between the EU and Turkey, Turkey even conned billions out of the EU due to its bartering position and the fact it was holding back the tide of immigrants, that was until the talks to join totally broke down...at the time this claim was made, the EU had made a positive statement about the relationship of Turkey and talks to give it EU status (well a chopped down version).
6/ Our rebate can be taken from us against our will

What rebate is this?... The EU created the perfect storm for some of our industries to become negative and thus rely on EU rebates, this ensures EU reliance for a member state and make gives the EU a strong position in any discussions, that is unless you are a big contributor like we are, the fact the rebate never even leaves UK banks and is never actually handed over shows we pay our own rebate, the EU just artificially increase our membership fee to make it seem we are receiving something back.
7/ We can't stop a european army

The EU does not want to rely on America for military support, it want to make it own decisions and choices, key to the EU Army idea was having the UK on board but they denied this idea for 2 decades saying it was not true, then the president of the EU admitted in a speech that indeed they had a goal for a EU Army, this is still the case today.
8/ We are liable for eurozone bailouts in the future

Our membership fee and heavy tariffs pay for bailouts etc as it stands, there are only a few member states that are positive contributors, the rest are been propped up by the major contributors that is France, Germany and the UK.
9/ UK is always outvoted

We are not always outvoted, we are the majority of the time, but without context this means nothing, we are outvoted on some very important votes that have big effects for the UK and this is why it doesn't really work for the UK.
10/ British sreel suffered because of the EU

This is misleading and taken a bit out of context, China dumped loads of cheap steel in the world market against agreed trade practices, this effected most countries but because we have a bif steel industry it hit us harder, we did take certain steps although we could have taken bigger ones to soften the overall blow but were restricted by EU regulations on lower caps for tax.

There are others

Oh and this

Vote Leave fined and reported to police by Electoral Commission - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-fined-and-reported-to-police-by-electoral-commission-brexit

What this ignores is the fact remain were also found to be fiddling the numbers and neither these come anywhere close to the governments 10million pumped into a pro EU leaflet campaign using tax payers money days before the official campaign with spending cap started.
I will also add that the BBC covered the remain accusation and fine in a 30second story on one day, it stayed on the brexit campaign story for a week and they say they are impartial.
Subscribe to read | Financial Times - https://www.ft.com/content/2f91721d-9512-3c2a-9e0f-4453897183c8

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Far as I am aware, we have the right to opt out of any laws we don’t like.
The £350 mil doesn’t take account of the rebate we get.
The EU flag on the No. plates is a choice, which allows us not to have to put a sticker on the back of our cars when we drive in Europe.
Other choices include flag of St. George, Saltire, Welsh Dragon, even the NI flag.
Not sure about the shoes, as I mostly wear safety boots, motorcycle boots or plain trainers.

 

[Darkwood]

@spinlondon
Regarding the Flag, originally the EU put it in legislation that all EU members number plates need to carry the EU flag this was contended at a later date and they allowed a change in law that you can opt out of this but you need to show your country of origin with a sticker.
My point wasn't about it been law or choice, its the fact 99% of vehicles will have the EU flag on and the letters representing the country, I was discussing subconscious influence like advertising does, we are passed by thousands of EU flag symbols on a daily basis was my point.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

@spinlondon
Regarding the Flag, originally the EU put it in legislation that all EU members number plates need to carry the EU flag this was contended at a later date and they allowed a change in law that you can opt out of this but you need to show your country of origin with a sticker.
My point wasn't about it been law or choice, its the fact 99% of vehicles will have the EU flag on and the letters representing the country, I was discussing subconscious influence like advertising does, we are passed by thousands of EU flag symbols on a daily basis was my point.

That’s one of my points proved, we can opt out of laws we don’t like.
Is it a bad law?
We used to have a law requiring us to put a GB sticker on the back of our cars if we drove abroad.
The EU brought in a law saying the GB could be on the number plate instead.
Now it’s propaganda?

 

[Darkwood]

@spinlondon
I never said we couldn't use our own options, it was actually one of the few times we got something agreed but this is water off a ducks back to them, as long as it doesn't interfere with their end goal they can be flexible, my argument is the direction they have been and are heading that has turned a simple trade deal into a ambition to become a superstate, it is laws and legislation that move to that goal that often conflicts with us and either sees powers removed or costs incurred and no way to circumvent them or change them.
Take the farming industry, many of the laws the UK has to abide to are brought in to aid other EU nations and end up costing us, there is now so much red tap around agriculture that many of our industries have been forced into the negative and cannot realistically ever turn a profit hence the rebates come in, when we leave we can remove alot of this, still be compliant to sell into the EU and crucially boost and deregulate our farming industry.
Just look up how bad for the UK the common agriculture policy is, I even see remainers say that is one big positive if we do leave that we can get out of that mess of a system that just doesn't work for the UK.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

See, this is what I don’t understand.
If the agricultural policy doesn’t work for us, why hasn’t our government opted out from it?

 

[FatAlan]

What about the other way around though, millions of EU money invested into our education system, to promote EU ideology, Pro EU representatives making regular speeches at Universities and Colleges while Anti EU ideology is is both suppressed and denied when requested.
The EU has withdrawn party funding for Anti EU groups even though it has to be impartial to the funding of them.
The EU also has its fingers in the pie of our media like the BBC which is why they continue to give biased reporting with terms like crashing out when this has actually no meaning, the WTO is a deal in itself.
What about Soros the billionaire who is pumping millions into pro EU groups with the intentions to frustrate the democratic decision, Soros has direct links to Gina Millers Pro EU group she set up, although she has distanced herself from the group now it makes one wonder who payed her legal bills as she refused to divulge such info' when she contended parliament on a meaningful vote, luckily it has backfired because it blocked a deal that would have seen us tied into the customs union indefinitely and at the mercy of any laws they made without any tabled response.. guessing she didn't expect her interference would be the key to blocking a deal she would have been happy with.

What I am getting at is you respond with a daily rag which is clearly politically position and they do not deny it, what is worrying is all the millions pumped into pro EU projects and groups to sway the public opinion that are not clear and transparent.

Prior to the Brexit vote the EU were blocked from introducing pro EU literature into our junior schools as this was seen as an attempt to brainwash the new generation with the eventual goal of off realising the idea of a EU superstate (which they now have admitted) and preparing the future generation to be voting yes, the reason many of the students are Pro EU nowadays is because many further education systems are swamped with teachers who are pro EU and if you just look around many of the universities it won't take long before you spot pro EU propaganda... you see not just in these institutes but everywhere, the union jack everyday replaced by the EU flag on millions of registration plates across the country, it is subtle attempts like this that are forced onto us that slowly to subconsciously sway our opinion, the exact same reason business spend millions on advertising because it has a subconscious influence, this in the long term helps suppress Anti EU opinion.

Unfortunately public opinion changed for many reasons and this opened the whole EU can of worms and people started to realise just exactly what the EU is and why we would be better of out of it, we are not alone, the rise of Anti EU attitudes is flooding Europe and this is not because of lies and propaganda, it is because the EU has been dictating to countries and ignoring their democratic decisions.

A bit like Aron Banks leave funding to the leave campaign and all the Russian money etc. If we leave we’ll become an off shore tax haven for the mega rich and Criminals. They won’t give a stuff about industry and manufacturing. Funny how EU is about to introduce stricter tax laws on the mega rich. Still I suppose we can just exist like all those successful British money laundering out posts like, Malta, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Cayman Islands etc that hide all the money that the Essex boys had accumulated from the boiler room scams perpetrated on your parents and grand parents. Strange times. Perhaps we’re all falling for a devisive bigger plan! Certainly in this modern age of media saturation our ‘democratic’ system seems pretty vulnerable. Who knows what ‘f&*k’ is going on!

 

[FatAlan]

Can we talk about sheds now?

 

[Darkwood]

The EU has been threatening tougher tax laws for decades, so has the UK, no government has ever done it because at the end of the day the financial sector runs the country, the politics are merely a tool to appease the people, the most you will get is a visual theatre game but the loopholes are never closed, if anyone wanted to they could close the loopholes tomorrow but here we are still seeing people manipulating the tax system and its loopholes, the fact is these major corporates lobby the EU probably costing them millions to do so but the changes in laws and finance they successfully lobby for probably will see a 5 - 10 fold return and all we see is a cover law that costs them a fraction but has the public believing there voices are heard, it is only the small businesses that are crucified if they make an error or cheat the taxman as they have no way to afford the legal representation needed to get away with it.

Personally I don't see what this has to do with Brexit, the EU may introduce new tax laws but it will not stop those at the top dodging their taxes somehow, if we force them they we simply move to other shores and we not only lose economical input but many thousands of jobs to boot.

This comment about the UK becoming a tax haven is nothing to do with a real tax haven, it was Corbyns attempt to get support by making people believe the UK would become one when in fact we will be arranging low to free trade deals, lower corporation tax to attract new business, this is not a tax haven, this is competitive trading and economical strategy, we are only a tax haven if we let companies with no business ties use our country as a false base for there company.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Hilarious from yesterdays no confidence debate.
Labour supporters look away now...

 

[electric al]

see the bit that confuses me is, why is the EU obsessed with a hard boner ?
I guess its imperative though
if they are to continue shafting us

 

[telectrix]

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into

Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.

OUT OF EUROPE we need to be out of it

 

[plugsandsparks]

Yep, exactly thats why Germany is SSSSOOOO pro EU, it means they can invest all their excess euros in another country and make even more money. Its not just UK manufacturing that has suffered, German, French, Italian and even Spain have suffered, no wonder the peasants are revolting in these countries, they are being ripped off by THE MAN, in the shape of Global Multinational Companies