BS7671 Vs NFPA-NEC

[Knobhead]

This would sort out most of the dross in this trade.

A legally binding code and compulsory registration.

Yes I know there’s a lot wrong in the NEC, there’s far more wrong in BS7671.

 

[andyb]

Well for a start you wouldn't need to be paying 400 quid annual Scam Fees, as ALL qualified electricians would be required to be on a National Qualified Electricians Register!! Any fee's involved would not be subject to shareholders payouts, so would be considerably less than the present main scams.

I always thought that the Nic was part of the ESC which is a registered charity & the ECA is a trade association so as far as I'm aware no shareholders. I'm happy to be shown wrong on this but that is how I've always seen it. Don't know about the other schemes.

How would a National Qualified Electricians Register work?

 

[ackbarthestar]

1. The government through general taxation. Money would be saved elsewhere by a drop in electrical fires due to a higher standard of workmanship. A Part P tax that would cover the local BA to inspect the work.

2. All the existing schemes would be made to join together or dissolve. The new body would not be allowed to profit from it's members.

3. City & Guilds would is respected everywhere and would be the sole trainer of choice.

4. All assessors from the new body would beed to be trained to the highest level. Their decision would be final.

Ok,I understand what you are saying but there are quite a few retrograde steps here.

In answer to your questions

1. The Government is very unlikely to pay as it puts the burden back onto the tax payer and as you'll notice the movement is not towards central government expenditure and has been for the last 39 years regardless of who's in power. 'Not be allowed' ? - It sounds like a UNITE version of the Ten Commandments......

2. 'All existing schemes would be MADE to to join together' - I tend to agree with you on this one, although, what about freedom of choice and individual liberties? From what i have gathered NAPIT have suggested just that but the other schemes have poo pooed it. NAPIT NICEIC offer good technical advice, STROMA offer the best deal, No point in considering ELESCA as they went belly up and were bought out by NICEIC. Not sure what BSI are up to.

3. C&G is in a pickle, JTL, the old training arm of the JIB has ditched them for EAL (EMTA). They wouldn't have been able to do that under a dictatorial mandate, but the present system does offer C&G the opportunity to change its ways.

4. Everybody needs to be trained to a competent level, whatever their profession. 'Their decision would be final' - not sure I would pay into that. There are some right plonkers out there who are highly regarded in some quarters and are ignored by others. Your policy would give the knuckle draggers a permanent mandate without any form of review.

 

[PEG]

I always thought that the Nic was part of the ESC which is a registered charity & the ECA is a trade association so as far as I'm aware no shareholders. I'm happy to be shown wrong on this but that is how I've always seen it. Don't know about the other schemes.

How would a National Qualified Electricians Register work?

In short,it wouldn't.

The very first thing that occurs,when an attempt at an equalising system is sought...is that some seek to be more equal than others.

At the instigation of this "new" system (that is newly enforced,not newly invented),would be those fighting to be "more equal" at the writing,applying,enforcing and enrolling of said idea.

Over the years,i have had my professional hopes raised and dashed,by a myriad of qualifications,certifications,licences,guilds and bodies... but human nature has NEVER let me down. :icon12:

 

[Engineer54]

In short,it wouldn't.

The very first thing that occurs,when an attempt at an equalising system is sought...is that some seek to be more equal than others.

At the instigation of this "new" system (that is newly enforced,not newly invented),would be those fighting to be "more equal" at the writing,applying,enforcing and enrolling of said idea.

Over the years,i have had my professional hopes raised and dashed,by a myriad of qualifications,certifications,licences,guilds and bodies... but human nature has NEVER let me down. :icon12:

No of course it wouldn't, it only works and works well in other Westernised countries so no chance for the UK!! This the sort of total crap i was talking about earlier in the thread, people like you that only want to see problems rather than getting over the problems...

I suggest it's been more of a case of YOU and others like you sitting back doing nothing and then blaming anyone and everyone for you're dashed hopes!!

 

[Leesparkykent]

It works fine for gas safe and could be replicated for our industry. If some one is caught doing gas work illegally then they are looking at getting a bit of bird. This would improve the standard of out trade within a few years IMO.

i posted the bit in bold only a few days ago in a previous thread.

I personally would be in favour for a single non profit organisation run on behalf of the Health and Safety Executive just like gas safe to govern our industry where electricians would have to be registered and it would be a legal requirement for operatives and associated businesses.
we would all have a card with our picture and a licence number that could be easily checked against a single register. We would all have random checks carried out on our work just like gas safe and a sanctions, suspension and removal procedure that could be used to prosecute an individual or company carrying out electrical work if required once one of the above has been put in to place.

 

[GB.Kayak]

It works fine for gas safe and could be replicated for our industry. If some one is caught doing gas work illegally then they are looking at getting a bit of bird. This would improve the standard of out trade within a few years IMO.

i posted the bit in bold only a few days ago in a previous thread.

I personally would be in favour for a single non profit organisation run on behalf of the Health and Safety Executive just like gas safe to govern our industry where electricians would have to be registered and it would be a legal requirement for operatives and associated businesses.
we would all have a card with our picture and a licence number that could be easily checked against a single register. We would all have random checks carried out on our work just like gas safe and a sanctions, suspension and removal procedure that could be used to prosecute an individual or company carrying out electrical work if required once one of the above has been put in to place.

Having looked at the HSE web page on the subject of the Gas Safe Register, their model is different to the one that you propose. The Gas Safe Register is run on a 10 year contract from 8 Sep 2008 on behalf of the HSE by Capita Group PLC. Clearly this is therefore tax payers' money delivering profit into shareholders' and directors' pockets.

That is the growing way of government today, and going off topic a little, often the reason why the cost of public services is rising dramatically. The benefits of 'choice' over provider and perceived 'best value for money' actually results in higher costs to the tax payer in the long term! Taking over government employees in defence, health, education and other sectors often delivers a 'trained', though in some cases a not wholly effective pool of knowledge and skill, which 'kick starts' a new profit making venture for a private company. The private company is 'cheaper' than employing civil servants as their employment T&Cs are less restrictive and pension expectations are lower. However, private companies do expect to pay expensive directors to get the best in the market, ostensibly to deliver best 'performance' and to deliver profit to shareholders. Furthermore, as the initial dividend of trained personnel decays away, the cost of training new people begins to bite. Note the 'shorter term' nature of most of these contracts or the very high costs of those over the longer term; people are the biggest source of business benefit and cost. Over the longer term personnel need constant replacing and as they retire the pension 'noose' tightens but so too does the demand on the training budget. Unfortunately for the government, the 'contracting' out of services is a one-time 'sweetened' offer. The next or existing contractor tendering for the follow on contract will name their price because the government, having sold off the 'family silver' will have nowhere to turn! This is an 'ill wind which blows no one any good'!

 

[CockneyReject]

So....................


Instead of all the "it wouldn't work in the UK", "who'd fund it?" etc etc bo**cks that gets spouted when these threads come up can anyone shed some light on how it actually works in other countries? The current systems a joke, there's too many chancers and Electrical Trainee's and rates and working conditions are poor too so what's wrong with anything that would go towards putting this right?

 

[trev]

There are too many fingers in too many pies and too many vested interests for anything to change. There's only one way that it could be forced and that is for a national boycott of all of the r£gulatory bodies.
However, there are people within our ranks who see membership of them as a necessity. To them, I'd say they need to look at the bigger picture.

 

[rapparee]

The american electrical industry is heavily unionised. Even the republic has the TEEU. What is the uk equivalent. Tony when you talk about a national register, do you mean a body that serves it's members (a bit like the BMA).

 

[trev]

The american electrical industry is heavily unionised. Even the republic has the TEEU. What is the uk equivalent. Tony when you talk about a national register, do you mean a body that serves it's members (a bit like the BMA).

I'd like to see a single body, one which would serve it's members interests as well as those of the people and companies we carry out work for. This body would have to have long, pointy teeth and the willingness and resources to use them against those among us who do sub standard work. I'd also like to see individual competence as per the gas safe model.
I don't think I'll live long enough to see it.
The Tolpuddle martyrs must be turning in their graves.

 

[Knobhead]

The problem for the ones that need the schemes is that without them they have no worthwhile qualifications.
A national register (licence) with set levels of qualifications and competence would be a threat because they wouldn’t be able to “buy” their way in.

The US have it nicely tied up, to carry to electrical work in other than your own home you need a licence otherwise you will be fined.

The employed industrial lads will be up in arms:
“Why do we need a licence?”
“No licence, no work.”
“OK if you put it that way.”
Believe me over the years some of the industrial lads I’ve come across I wonder how they had the intelligence to find their way out of the womb.

With everyone in the fold fees don’t need to be punitive as now.

Look at it this way. You drive a car, you have a licence. On the back of it, it says what you can drive. Where’s the difference?

I said when I started this, it’s a matter for discussion. Not to sort the mechanics of it, that will take a few years.

 

[trev]

As I understand France have a licencing system
Q'ue est q'uil fait le travail electrical?
Mais Oui mon ami
Avez vous un licence?
Ah non, je n' avez pas un licence
D'accord, allez vous a le prison.
Pretty simple really
Apologies to any French people looking in for my disgraceful use of their language

 

[Engineer54]

My simple translation.... lol!!

is Q'ue q'uil electrical work done?
But yes my friend
Do you have a license?
Oh no, I do not have a license
Okay, go you the prison.