C2 issues? Consumer Unit & Circuit forms a Figure of 8 Rather than a complete RFC?

[LEighLeigh]

Please help, just had a domestic EICR undertaken, a C2 issue: Consumer Unit does not meet minimum I.P rating, what does this mean and how do I check this out? how expensive to rectify? thanks!

 

[pc1966]

Is there any way of telling from the EICR report?

No, you would need to ask the electrician who did the inspection for some detail on that.

Given they have said circuit 6 presumably it is a single MCB involved so closer to @westward10 comment.

 

[LEighLeigh]

No, you would need to ask the electrician who did the inspection for some detail on that.

Given they have said circuit 6 presumably it is a single MCB involved so closer to @westward10 comment.

I get the feeling I'm being a bit ripped off, particularly as I think they were lining me up to buy a new CU. What would I be able to go back with so I sound a bit more clued up?

 

[pc1966]

It is still not good for several reasons, one is you can't perform the usual RFC end-end checks and get all/most sockets connections verified that way.

Other point is unless you know where the loops touch you could end up with a lot more of the current on one leg of the circuit so potentially overloading the cable as the RFC typically uses 2.5mm cable rated at 20A (or so, depending on the installation method) but protected by 30A fuse or 32A MCB on the assumption of moderately sane load distribution.

Fixing the circuit is best answer, but if in doubt dropping the MCB to 20A at least removes the risk of cable overload.

 

[LEighLeigh]

It is still not good for several reasons, one is you can't perform the usual RFC end-end checks and get all/most sockets connections verified that way.

Other point is unless you know where the loops touch you could end up with a lot more of the current on one leg of the circuit so potentially overloading the cable as the RFC typically uses 2.5mm cable rated at 20A (or so, depending on the installation method) but protected by 30A fuse or 32A MCB on the assumption of moderately sane load distribution.

Fixing the circuit is best answer, but if in doubt dropping the MCB to 20A at least removes the risk of cable overload.

I guess that would cause the circuit to trip out more than usual?

 

[LEighLeigh]

I see you're in Swansea... is the property also in Swansea?

Are you based in S Wales also?

 

[pc1966]

I get the feeling I'm being a bit ripped off, particularly as I think they were lining me up to buy a new CU. What would I be able to go back with so I sound a bit more clued up?

Without seeing it we can't tell.

You could get more photos to show the CU and any holes for cable (or other damage) and post them here.

If @SparkyChick cover your area then she is an excellent choice for a 2nd opinion, but it might just get the same answer but now 2 EICR costs and same remedial expense.

More info and guidance can be found for free in the Best Practice Guide #4 here:

https://www.----------------------------/professional-resources/best-practice-guides/

 

[pc1966]

I guess that would cause the circuit to trip out more than usual?

Does it usually trip?

Unless you have all of the kitchen and rest of the house with heaters, etc, on the same RFC then you are unlikely to trip the MCB on over current at 20A. However, if it is the RCD that is tripping due to a selection of leaky electronics then the better solution would be a new CU with all RCBO so you don't have several circuits accumulation leakage to the point a common RCD trips.

 

[LEighLeigh]

Does it usually trip?

Unless you have all of the kitchen and rest of the house with heaters, etc, on the same RFC then you are unlikely to trip the MCB on over current at 20A. However, if it is the RCD that is tripping due to a selection of leaky electronics then the better solution would be a new CU with all RCBO so you don't have several circuits accumulation leakage to the point a common RCD trips.

I think that is the answer then, drop the MCB to 20 A

 

[SparkyChick]

Are you based in S Wales also?

Yes, but I operate in/around Cardiff and Newport.

 

[pc1966]

I think that is the answer then, drop the MCB to 20 A

It might be a solution but you still need to check all of the sockets are soundly connected. I suspect the 'FI' code is down to being unable to verify they are OK in the usual end-end test.

Do you know of any work on the sockets since the installation / last inspection that might explain this?

Looking at the photo there are two circuits (at least, MCB fitted) that as marked as "spare". Are they really unused or just not properly documented?

 

[westward10]

Yes, but I operate in/around Cardiff and Newport.

You ignore the 50mph through Port Talbot it is half an hour away

 

[Dartlec]

I get the feeling I'm being a bit ripped off, particularly as I think they were lining me up to buy a new CU. What would I be able to go back with so I sound a bit more clued up?

If you haven't already then ask for a detailed quote for the remedial works. The C2s are the only ones you must correct - the others are optional.

You are also at liberty to get other quotes for the work - there is no requirement in law to get another report that says 'satisfactory' on it - just to correct the issues that were discovered.

It does make it easier with letting agents to have the one satisfactory report, but all you need by law (assuming this is a let property) is the EICR plus proof that all remedial works have been completed.

The Figure of 8 issue probably needs some more detailed investigation - however, from the looks of the consumer unit I'm guessing it's not a huge property so unlikely to be a lot of sockets?

If the 'alteration' they mention has been made at a socket it may well be easy to resolve. If not, and the sockets don't cover lots of appliances or kitchen, then dropping it to a 20A radial may well be the easiest/cheapest solution.

The consumer unit would appear to be one that was installed within the last 10 years or so - was there any documentation/certification with it, as that may reveal whether the original installer or the current tester has done a better job?

 

[timhoward]

Can someone put me out of my misery..... I've seen no outgoing N tail from a meter before, but never no incoming N tail.
Where is the supplier side N incoming meter tail? And what is that short loop out and back to the cut-out doing?
Sorry if I'm being thick!

 

[LEighLeigh]

If you haven't already then ask for a detailed quote for the remedial works. The C2s are the only ones you must correct - the others are optional.

You are also at liberty to get other quotes for the work - there is no requirement in law to get another report that says 'satisfactory' on it - just to correct the issues that were discovered.

It does make it easier with letting agents to have the one satisfactory report, but all you need by law (assuming this is a let property) is the EICR plus proof that all remedial works have been completed.

The Figure of 8 issue probably needs some more detailed investigation - however, from the looks of the consumer unit I'm guessing it's not a huge property so unlikely to be a lot of sockets?

If the 'alteration' they mention has been made at a socket it may well be easy to resolve. If not, and the sockets don't cover lots of appliances or kitchen, then dropping it to a 20A radial may well be the easiest/cheapest solution.

The consumer unit would appear to be one that was installed within the last 10 years or so - was there any documentation/certification with it, as that may reveal whether the original installer or the current tester has done a better job?

Thank you, yes the CU is 7 years old approx and it is a small house, just three bedroom terrace. Sockets number around 10 throughout the whole property I think.

Downstairs recently there was a 'false wall' put in which sits 2 inches in front on the old wall, two sockets had to be moved, now one doesn't work.

I think the sockets do cover the kitchen, but not entirely sure. I'll try and get a picture of the CU tomorrow.

So by law I guess I do have to have a competent person undertake the FI too

 

[Dartlec]

Thank you, yes the CU is 7 years old approx and it is a small house, just three bedroom terrace. Sockets number around 10 throughout the whole property I think.

Downstairs recently there was a 'false wall' put in which sits 2 inches in front on the old wall, two sockets had to be moved, now one doesn't work.

I think the sockets do cover the kitchen, but not entirely sure. I'll try and get a picture of the CU tomorrow.

So by law I guess I do have to have a competent person undertake the FI too

It sounds like the two moved sockets would be a good candidate to start investigating then!

It might be a fairly simple fix (It's possibly just a simple case of connecting wires up differently behind the two sockets.) it's just that often the time set aside for testing doesn't allow things like this to be confirmed or corrected.

Although as @westward10 points out, it should either have been coded as a confirmed "figure of eight", or FI with a description of what the issue is that needs to be checked (presumably poor or inconsistent continuity tests).

From the horses mouth: -

"If the report shows that remedial work or further investigation is required, as set out above, landlords must complete this work within 28 days or any shorter period if specified as necessary in the report. Landlords must then provide written confirmation that the work has been carried out to their tenant and to the local authority within 28 days."​

Which is yet another example of the poorly written legislation - as technically it doesn't say that the person that carries out the remedial work must be competent.

However, ALL electrical work should be carried out by someone competent, as required by other general legislation - You also need to be able to prove in future that the work has been carried out competently, so a certificate or invoice rather than a hand written note from a handyman is advisable in anything electrical.

With an FI, it can be tricky to decide what remedial work is required though without further testing. It's likely that just replacing the MCB with a 20A without that further testing isn't guaranteed to resolve the issue.

Do you have the test results page, as that might throw a little extra light on the issue.