Can anyone explain how Klik's work?

[BiddeldyBwah]

I'm working with these at work at the minute and they really confuse me. Unfortunately everyone is too busy to take the time to explain them properly so i'm left guessing.

We have a 4 core YY coming from the board (which i've not seen), feeding a row of lights that is a mixture of emergency and regular industrial LED downlights about 10 inches in diameter, all lights are on PIR's.

I know how to wire it up to get what we want but don't understand how it's all working.

The normal clicks are L N E and Loop and the wiring is 1 in Live, 2 in N, 3 in Loop and E in E. One cable in, one out to the next light.

When we come to the emergencies, the number 3 wire in Loop gets put into the Aux.

What i don't get is how the board is feeding it all and what the Aux actually does.

Is it that the L goes through the plug, into the PIR which then switches on, connecting the L and Aux together?

If you look at a Klik wiring diagram it shows live into loop, and then out of loop into a switch before being wired into the L terminal.

Confused.

 

[Vortigern]

You need a permanent and switched live to maintained emergency lights. The fourth wire will be the permanent live. Usually the Klix are red in such a case.

 

[nicebutdim]

PL supplies permanent power for battery charging.

 

[Lister1987]

Just made myself a few Klik test leads, fiddly little bastards thry are!: 3 pin,4 pin and 7 pin. I know they're a Hager product bit are there other brands out there that have a take on it?

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

So how do they work with PIR's on?

The L is the switch live but as they are on PIR's they are permanently on, just on a key switch i presume.

So how are the permanent live and switch live at the klik, which are both basically permanently live since the switch is always on (there are no normal switches on this installation it's just key switches) then go into using the PIR as a switch to turn the actual light on?

 

[Eddy Currents]

Permanent live from the DB through a key switch into A on emergency kliks
PIRs also use emergency kliks, permanent from A, SW into L
Lights wired to L and Emergency lights permanent to A, SW to L

A is always live and charging emergencies when key switch is on, use keyswitch for emergency test
L is only live when PIRs activate

 

[mattg4321]

Also worth noting that some older sparks call them rock roses as I think I’m right in saying Ashley Rock used to be the brand name until Hager bought them and rebranded the product Klik roses.

 

[casperLennon]

Have you tried drawing it out. I find that helps me to understand things which then helps it’s to stick in my head

 

[nicebutdim]

So how do they work with PIR's on?

The L is the switch live but as they are on PIR's they are permanently on, just on a key switch i presume.

So how are the permanent live and switch live at the klik, which are both basically permanently live since the switch is always on (there are no normal switches on this installation it's just key switches) then go into using the PIR as a switch to turn the actual light on?

Permanent live is permanently live, other than test situations or power failure, and simply powers emergency battery charging.

Switched live powers the lighting through a switch, just like a domestic lighting circuit - in this case the switch is a PIR.

Both lives are part of the same circuit, as they originate at the same breaker and share neutral & earth, but provide live feed to different parts of the circuit.

Emergency operation remains in standby while powered, then activates when mains power is cut.


I'm sure someone can put this in better terms.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

L is only live when PIRs activate

I get all the rest of it but not this bit. The actual klik rose box (not the klik plug) is wired with an L from the DB which is permanently live, so how does the PIR only make it live when it's activated?

We've got 1, 2, 3 and E. 1 and 3 are live, 2 is neutral.

1 always goes in L from the DB but 3 goes in Loop if it's a normal light and A if it's emergency.

I understand how the wiring goes i just don't understand how the PIR works.

 

[nicebutdim]

I get all the rest of it but not this bit. The actual klik rose box (not the klik plug) is wired with an L from the DB which is permanently live, so how does the PIR only make it live when it's activated?

Have you tried drawing the circuit?

I'm no longer certain what question you want answered as it seems to have changed from the question posed in the OP.

This last post seems to be asking why a lamp lights when the switch is activated, but that clearly isn't what you want to know.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

Have you tried drawing the circuit?

I can't because i don't know what's doing what.

L from DB to L in Klik.
Plug on click connects to L and makes PIR live. PIR switches live which turns the light on.

That's the best i've got.

It's annoying because i know exactly how to install them i just can't explain how they work if someone asks me.

I know L is supposed to be switched live on a normal klik without PIR, i just don't get how we go from a switch on the watch for that L to it being activated after the klik rose by the PIR. Unless it's L into the PIR and the PIR then switches the light on.

 

[nicebutdim]

Perhaps you could post an image the exact rose in question - any I've encountered have simply been plug in connectors, which allow each conductor to fulfill their intended purpose, and employ no form of trickery.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

Perhaps you could post an image the exact rose in question - any I've encountered have simply been plug in connectors, which allow each conductor to fulfill their intended purpose, and employ no form of trickery.

Yeah to be fair we've got like 50 LED downlights in a row, with klik on each one, and every other one is an emergency where we put the #3 wire into A instead of Loop. I think there's 12 circuits or something in total controlling it all so it's not that simple.

I just think L ---> PIR ---> Switches on Light but when people then refer to the L as the switch wire i don't get how it does when in that situation it's essentially the feed even though it's run through an on-all-the-time emergency key switch.

What's confusing me is instead of going to the switch and then onto the klik, we've got permanent live up to the klik, and THEN, after the power has arrived at the klik, the PIR acts as the switch. So where is the switch wire? Or does the PIR have an inbuilt switch wire that makes the connection and turns the light on?

Maybe we've done it in a slightly different way or something.

I can do 2 way, intermediate lighting easily without even thinking about it but this has had me confused for at least a day now.

I think i'll follow the circuit from DB to end of run when i'm next on that job and see if i can figure it out that way.

 

[telectrix]

the PIR has a permanent feed. maybe via the EM keyswitch. when it activates, the output terminal goes live to energise the light. so this may well be connected to the Sw/L on the Klik.

 

[Eddy Currents]

Just imagine the PIR as a switch (with a neutral), permanent live in, SW live out but the PIR does the switching on detection instead of a manual switch

 

[westward10]

Assuming the cable to the motion sensor has a cpc then you have a four core cable, permanent live, switch live return, neutral and cpc. The permanent live is also utilised for the em lighting at the Klix marshalling box.

 

[Eddy Currents]

I get all the rest of it but not this bit. The actual klik rose box (not the klik plug) is wired with an L from the DB which is permanently live, so how does the PIR only make it live when it's activated?

We've got 1, 2, 3 and E. 1 and 3 are live, 2 is neutral.

1 always goes in L from the DB but 3 goes in Loop if it's a normal light and A if it's emergency.

I understand how the wiring goes i just don't understand how the PIR works.

This doesn't sound right

Feed L from DB should go in A for emergency klik or Loop for a normal
You can wire the other way around as long as the plugs are also wired the same but you say other kliks are right

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

This doesn't sound right

Feed L from DB should go in A for emergency klik or Loop for a normal
You can wire the other way around as long as the plugs are also wired the same but you say other kliks are right

Sorry i meant the wire that goes in L on the klik is live all the time but it goes through a bank of emergency key switches next to the DB which are on all the time so it's essentially it's a permanent live.

 

[westward10]

When you say live all the time at the Klix is this the marshalling box where all the plugs are.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

When you say live all the time at the Klix is this the marshalling box where all the plugs are.

Nah there isn't one these are individual kliks.

They are on emergency key switches which i presume is fed from the db and then the 'switch live' L goes from there to the klik, and the perma live is linked through and goes into Loop.

 

[Eddy Currents]

If that is the case then either you are mistaken or it is wired incorrectly or intentionally changed to always be on

It should go from MCB to keyswitch to Loop in standard klik or A in emergency

Your extra cable at the keyswitches is not required but probably a conversion from Switch / Keyswitch to Keyswitch / PIR which might have been done wrong

Maybe a stupid question but do the PIRs work? Have you seen them switching?

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

If that is the case then either you are mistaken or it is wired incorrectly or intentionally changed to always be on

It should go from MCB to keyswitch to Loop in standard klik or A in emergency

Your extra cable at the keyswitches is not required but probably a conversion from Switch / Keyswitch to Keyswitch / PIR which might have been done wrong

Maybe a stupid question but do the PIRs work? Have you seen them switching?

Yeah they all work.

I'm probably mistaken somewhere but what i know for sure is the klik feed is in 4 core YY; 1 and 2 are L and N, 3 is Loop unless in an emergency light then it's in A.

I saw the lads operate the keyswitches to test them and they all turned on and then worked on their PIR's.

I've not seen the DB wiring but i'm presuming since it's 4 core that the grid switch with the keyswitches is fed in T+E from DB and the 4 core comes out the other side and feeds the kliks?

 

[westward10]

You need to do a line diagram ignoring the fact Klix plugs are involved. Ignore neutrals and cpcs as these will be common anyway. Ask yourself why there are two lines and how they are incorporated into the circuit.

 

[rewireIT]

Would this not just be

3 goes from breaker into keyswitch, out of keyswitch to loop/A depending on what kind of light.
1 goes from breaker into L, and via the klik plug from L to PIR. When PIR senses movement, it switches the light on.

?