Can you really become a spark without an apprenticeship-opinons?

[Davey101]

This is in no way meant to be derogatory to anyone, I was just interested in peoples opinions.
I see a lot on TV and in the papers of courses to train to be a spark, plumber, plasterer, or whatever.
There are actually signs on roundabouts by me, advertising a 2 or 3 day course to learn how to be a plasterer!
The idea of someone doing a 6 or 12 month course, and then going out and starting their own firm seems strange to me.
My question is, how well do these courses prepare people for the realities of being a tradesman?
I know from my personal experience that college was of very little use to me. I learnt all my skills on site, and to be honest, I only really started to become a half decent spark later on in my apprenticeship.
For instance, working on a wooden test board, with sockets neatly screwed in front of you wont be of much benefit when you walk into a greasy old factory with god knows how many types of wiring, trying to figure out why one of their machines or kettle has just stopped working.
It surprises me how little some apprentices, or more especially younger electricians know, beyond how to fix conduit to a wall, or pull a cable in (old fart alert)

Saying that, some people will be good at whatever they turn their hand to, and to be honest, you dont have to be a member of mensa to be a spark. Different people learn differently as well, some will be able to sit in a classroom, absorb everything, and go out and use it, personnally, I think I need more 'reinforcement' of idea's and skills.
Age may have something to do with it as well, most 16/17 year olds arent that interested, someone in there 20s/30s who has actually made the choice to be a spark may take to it a lot quicker.

Not having a go here, and I havent got an axe to grind, or a hidden agenda, just trying to gauge peoples opinions, I'd be happy to be proved wrong

 

[patricklondon]

The idea of someone doing a 6 or 12 month course, and then going out and starting their own firm seems strange to me.
My question is, how well do these courses prepare people for the realities of being a tradesman?

they dont they seem to rush through some of the basics but teach nothing of business skills though granted neither do normal route c&g. i think these courses should be considered more of a stepping stone to becoming "fully Qualified" whatever that means. i did my route as an adult learner over a few years of night school, i couldn't have afforded to live on apprentice rates which is academic anyway as there were none available to me. i know it was slower and harder to learn this way as so much was by making mistakes and a few bangs. the benefit of someone passing on there experience was just not there.
the flip side is that (and i'm not refering to myself here) adult retrainers are much more likely to turn up on time, be motivated to learn on the job and not just muck about. the usual benefits of a bit more maturity

 

[Amp David]

I reckon that with the number of posts on various forums all starting with 'What should I' or 'How do I', that there are a quite a number of poeple right out of fast track courses and into being self employed.

Don't get me wrong, asking questions is how we all learn. But some of the questions asked makes you wonder how competent a lot of poeple actually are.

 

[NeilM]

I have to say that I am currently in the middle of a short course and am getting a lot out of it.
I am more 'mature' in relation to age and have worked on site in the past, so know a broad outline of working practices, etc.
I am not doing the course specifically to become an Electrician but it is something I have always had a great interest in, so for me this is good for me. It won't be for everyone, admittedly. However, being older does mean you actually enthusiastic about what your learning and have better attention to detail.
I agree that Part P is a bit of an odd ball qualification which I don't believe should exist, and you really don't learn the 'proper' skills until your out on the job with a person or people who have been qualified for years. This is really the same in many industries.
There's knowing how to do something, then there's knowing how to do it properly!

 

[adam.h]

I think it's down tot he individual. But of course you will never learn anywhere as much as you would doing an apprenticeship.
I'm one of those unfortunates who did it at one of those home learning places. They was usless. I already have an electrical background so there theory was eay as I knew most of it. I can also pick up tools pretty easy, sounds daft but there where some people who really struggled using screwdrivers and not know what a file was.
Anyhoo, by doing these as opposed to an apprenticeship you have to learn a lot on your own, you dont get techniques and other essential on the job knowledge handed down to you.
Lucky for me though I have a few mates who are sparks so I have people to turn to.

But again you could have some guy going an apprenticeship andalso be equally usless. It's all down to the individual. imho.

 

[NeilM]

Well, mine is at a private training college which I have to say is pretty good.
But I do agree, this part is only a small proportion of what you actually need to know in the workplace.

Glad you have mates to help you out. I do too which really helps.You can then compare what you've learnt to what they think you should be doing.

 

[joelashby1]

The catch with these courses is the NVQ L3 part of the qualification. It's all well and good completing the 'in-house' assessments and online exams but once you want to get an industry-standard qualification i.e. the NVQ L3 it's not physically possible without being employed and creating a portfolio on site.

I signed up for a six month course LAST SEPTEMBER and have completed L2 & 3 2330 etc etc but just cannot get that NVQ. Because I'm under 21 I could get on the course for free. That now creates an issue; credit crunch - no companies can afford to take on apprentices. Why not work unpaid for the sake of finishing your qualification? The college won't even begin signing me off unless I'm earning £95 or more, because i'm not a paying customer and they can't claim the government funding.

It's all riciculous and I'm now stuck with half a qualification and no flamin' work.

This may not be the case with all of these courses so I do apologise if my rant is a generalisation, it's just how things stand for my situation

ANY advice is mooooore than welcome - This is also my first post so a big HELLO to everbody out there in the forum.

 

[patricklondon]

hello joe. theres plenty of frustration about, be carefull about swearing as the moderaters can get a bit moody even if you adapt it like you did. welcome along though

 

[Guest123]

be carefull about swearing as the moderaters can get a bit moody even if you adapt it like you did.

Swear all you want in the pub chaps....got to keep the public forums clean though, never know who's looking on.

 

[kung]

Hello and welcome also Joe !
These short courses are out there with all trades apart from GAS ! a few years ago while driving artics i was even driving along side some drivers who done short 2 weeks courses and had class 1 c+e licences and were incharge of an artic ! think about that ! some were ok some couldnt even get the back end on a bay straight ! if people want to just do domestics with the right back ground and application of willingness to learn after time they can become good domestic installers and these short sparky courses are also ok (quals are quals but get the right ones) with the right onsite exp as with everything classroom learning is just the start and onsite exp is a must but admittedly is impossible for people to get the onsite exp without a company or qualified spark individual to take these folk under their wing ! so for them the route must be self employed to gain the onsite experience that is a great shame ! I would take on an apprentice with these quals if they showed willingness to learn as if people will do the short course and want to learn its far better to get them trained right onsite than (and i dont wish to offend) have them out on their own and potentially run into trouble ! WERE all here to help NOT degrade people with our snobbery.
Regards
Kung.

 

[Spudnik]

As Lenny has pointed out, swearing will not be tolerated on the forums as they are viewable by all.

If you have a problem with it, them PM me or admin.

 

[steviespark]

Well i did, I am a four week training wonder now in my second year for a local firm. The problem is not with people doing these courses it lying after them to get a job. Guys off my course took jobs saying they had took a break from sparking then decided to come back into it so the had done all there qualifications again to refresh, lots of people do this and it amazes me they don't kill someone. I went around all the local firms offering to work for free advertising myself as "a fully qualified usless git needing exsperience". I explained what i had done in the past as i have worked on sites before and a company said ok. I worked for 2 weeks for free he was happy and took me on for minimum wage. I now earn the same as the other sparks, With this firm i have done house bashing, maintenance on the housing associations we cover and commercial work for Saint-Gobain. I learn new things everyday and listen to experience, the guy i work with is ten years younger than me and really knows his stuff. The thing to remember is the course makes you qualified the EXPERIENCE you get after it makes you a electrician.
re edited for darkwood a retrained english teacher i think. lol cheers mate

 

[Darkwood]

The course makes you qualified the exsperince you get after it makes you a electrician.

This should be a heading! with exception of the poor spelling EXPERIENCE