Cat5/Cat6 Data courses

[eskimo39]

Hi does anyone know of any courses in Cat5/Cat6 Tv, Data & CCTV installation courses.

Really fancy looking into this line of work.

Thanks

 

[UNG]

Look in trade mags plenty of places offering courses on what you require also plenty of good books around to get the basics then if you do a course you will get more out of it

I have not done many courses but enjoy reading technical books and manuals and expanding my knowledge into different areas in my experience a good book or two can be far more useful than a few courses

Over the years from being a spark some of the things I've done include Cat 5, fibre optic, cctv, covert surveilance cameras, intruder alarms, AV system installation and one of the best beers I ever had got me into installing and repairing wireless data networks and high access rigging (mast climbing and rope access)

You should be able to pick up Cat5 installation very easily as a lot of it is common sense

 

[acvc]

Eskimo - me too and fast.

I've just started a job of wiring an outside building for a house, and last night the customer dropped the bombshell of 'oh and you're not forgettting that I'll need my computers out there .... can I have a socket in each corner please'.

Well 'of course' said moi ..... thinking oh god ...never done it before but i've heard it's not too difficult .

I'm aware of the 568B and A wiring, the RJ45 8 colour/four twisted pairs and the RJ45 modular plugs.

In terms of wiring ... where would you take a feed from for the armoured cable to the outside building, then does it go to a central point in the building with radials to each socket? Or can you daisy-chain the sockets along as in electrical radial circuits?

Just a rough guide would be brilliant while a start learning/finding a friend who can!

Many thanks chaps and chapesses.

 

[bugsy]

Eskimo - me too and fast.

I've just started a job of wiring an outside building for a house, and last night the customer dropped the bombshell of 'oh and you're not forgettting that I'll need my computers out there .... can I have a socket in each corner please'.

Well 'of course' said moi ..... thinking oh god ...never done it before but i've heard it's not too difficult .

I'm aware of the 568B and A wiring, the RJ45 8 colour/four twisted pairs and the RJ45 modular plugs.

In terms of wiring ... where would you take a feed from for the armoured cable to the outside building, then does it go to a central point in the building with radials to each socket? Or can you daisy-chain the sockets along as in electrical radial circuits?

Just a rough guide would be brilliant while a start learning/finding a friend who can!

Many thanks chaps and chapesses.

If your going to install hard wired cat5e connections just take the two cables ( cat5e) back to where he intends to install the Hubb and terminate in RJ45's and terminate the two cables in Cat5e outlets in his out building although easier and cheaper to install wireless router,
Not sure where the armoured comes though , unless your refering the the electrical install .

 

[Doomed]

Each computer needs a seperate feed for networking, if you are only taking one length of cat5 from the house you will need to run that to a 8 or 16 port switch/hub and then run seperate cables from the switch/hub to each point.
Scan.co.uk: Leading supplier of Networking
Netgear is a good brand.

Also don't forget the additional requirements for electrical power sockets supplying a group of computers.

 

[UNG]

ACVC you don't say where you are located

If you are installing Cat5 outside i.e from house to outbuilding make sure you use external Cat5 (about twice the price as internal for the cheap stuff ) and don't be fobbed off as internal Cat5 degrades when exposed to UV and cause allsorts of problems I've been there and sorted other installers cable problems

Other considerations may be run one Cat5 and use a hub to split off to the points in the outbuilding and also makes the installation of extra points easier for network printers etc

Sockets are normally colour coded and require a punch down tool to terminate

The RJ45 plugs require a crimper to attach them. The plugs can be difficult to terminate at first but practice makes it easier. Crimpers cost from £15 if you are doing alot it is worth spending more

The difference between 568A and B are the connections made on pins 1 & 2 and 3 & 6 in a crossed Cat5 cable pins 1 & 2 are connected to 3 & 6 at the other end whereas a straight cable is as it says

 

[acvc]

Bugsy - I'm just assuming that a)there is such a thing as armoured Cat5 cable, and b)that I'll need it to run under the ground out to the building.

Thanks Bugsy and Doomed for your speedy replies. I'm going up there now. Bugsy I don;t quite understand this:

"If your going to install hard wired cat5e connections just take the two cables ( cat5e) back to where he intends to install the Hubb and terminate in RJ45's and terminate the two cables in Cat5e outlets in his out building although easier and cheaper to install wireless router"

Why two cables - is it not as simple as one cable from the house to the building?

Eskimo - sorry for hijacking this post.

Eskimo - sorry for hijacking this post.

 

[bugsy]

Bugsy - I'm just assuming that a)there is such a thing as armoured Cat5 cable, and b)that I'll need it to run under the ground out to the building.

Thanks Bugsy and Doomed for your speedy replies. I'm going up there now. Bugsy I don;t quite understand this:

"If your going to install hard wired cat5e connections just take the two cables ( cat5e) back to where he intends to install the Hubb and terminate in RJ45's and terminate the two cables in Cat5e outlets in his out building although easier and cheaper to install wireless router"

Why two cables - is it not as simple as one cable from the house to the building?

Eskimo - sorry for hijacking this post.

Eskimo - sorry for hijacking this post.

One run for each outlet , they cannot be wired in series,
Install in pvc conduit, - this offers better protection

 

[UNG]

although easier and cheaper to install wireless router,

Although easier and cheaper I would not recommend it as the 2.4GHz units are very prone to interference are rarely run at the speeds quoted due to this and the encryption and data transmission overheads within the wireless

Since wireless has become more widely used it's limited channels have become clogged

There are other wireless solutions but these require licencing to operate them and kit is a bit more expensive

 

[bugsy]

Hi does anyone know of any courses in Cat5/Cat6 Tv, Data & CCTV installation courses.

Really fancy looking into this line of work.

Thanks

Hager run very good training scheme for tebis there home automation system, covers telecoms, data, audio visual. this training is ( or was ) free . Contact Hager @ Telford

 

[UNG]

Bugsy - I'm just assuming that a)there is such a thing as armoured Cat5 cable, and b)that I'll need it to run under the ground out to the building.

I would not recommend armoured Cat5 it is an absolute pain to work with did it once and that was one too many

I would recommend using a double sheathed STP Cat5 problem is it ain't cheap the other option would be to use Supertube conduit and standard cable

 

[Golden_Boy]

I would not recommend armoured Cat5 it is an absolute pain to work with did it once and that was one too many

I would recommend using a double sheathed STP Cat5 problem is it ain't cheap the other option would be to use Supertube conduit and standard cable

Plastic water pipe also works a treat... Just lube the cable and away you go...

 

[acvc]

Thanks a million you lot. This forum - you - is/are brilliant .

A final question: In the house ..... I assume then I need to take an ethernet cable out of the modem and into a 2 port hub - one port for the house and the other port to run out to the outbuilding?

 

[bugsy]

Cat 5e patch cable from the router to the hubb. you can either buy one or as you will have the cable and RJ45 plugs make one.
With regards to the wireless routers - we have never had a problem
I would suggest 4/6 port hubb , your going to use two for the out house

 

[Golden_Boy]

Thanks a million you lot. This forum - you - is/are brilliant .

A final question: In the house ..... I assume then I need to take an ethernet cable out of the modem and into a 2 port hub - one port for the house and the other port to run out to the outbuilding?

Dont use a hub. get a 10/100 switch. When you say "modem" do you mean the box has only one socket for RJ45 plug or has it got several. A photo would be good. this is my area of expetise as I have been in the business professionally for 10 years. Do NOT use wireless if you can help it. Believe me cables are better every time. You can run up to 100 metres without any problems provided you take care with routing ( no pun intended ).

 

[UNG]

For what they cost I tend to use 8 port hubs as you seem to run out of ports very quickly with the advances in technology

 

[bugsy]

Dont use a hub. get a 10/100 switch. When you say "modem" do you mean the box has only one socket for RJ45 plug or has it got several. A photo would be good. this is my area of expetise as I have been in the business professionally for 10 years. Do NOT use wireless if you can help it. Believe me cables are better every time. You can run up to 100 metres without any problems provided you take care with routing ( no pun intended ).

Out of curiosity why would you elect to install a switcher as opposed to a hubb?
and what have you got against wireless networks , we have installed number of these in commercial enviroments, there use is on the increase , BT have launched open zone a national network , whats the problem?

 

[cornburn]

80% of the work we do is still data, and it's where our company's roots lie. The one thing I would say to any of you planning on working with data with no experience is that you're very likely to get call backs if you don't know what you're doing, and some of the questions above seem to suggest quite a lack of knowledge. What you're basically suggesting is the same as someone wanting to spur a socket in their house using speaker cable - "well it works when I plug it in so it must be ok!"

Data cabling is far more prone to damage and not as well protected as mains cables. There are many factors to take into account, as there is with electrical work. It took many years of experience for us to get to a stage where all our installs pass all the tests each time, as it is something you obvoisuly get a feel for over time. Our testing kit also cost £3k for Cat5/Cat6 so I'm not sure what you'd be planning on testing these installs with to make sure they comply with standards and will do the job your customer wants?

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh but people are always whinging on this forum about cowboys doing electrical work without knowing what they're doing and as we regularly lose work to cheaper sparkies who don't know what they're doing with data this touches a bit of a nerve with me as it's exactly the same thing. Only difference is there's (normally) no danger to the customer when they cock it up (apart from dangerously slow transfer rates!)

Re the courses I've never seen any decent ones advertised, might be best to do some reading on your own first to understand the principles and get practising with some punching down and testing. Continuity testers are a waste of time and won't prove that it will do the job, just whether or not you've crossed or mixed up any of the pairs - best to get something proper or leave it to someone with the right kit.

If you're just looking at a few nodes in a shed then to save yourself the hassle you could always just buy some pre-terminated (and tested) leads, and just pull a long one through ducting from the house (or use external Cat5 over a wire), then just use patch leads from the switch in the shed. And don't even think of using a hub, it's not the 1980's, you want a switch. As someone else said, the Netgear Pro stuff is ok for small installs like this and is pretty cheap. Anything bigger we usually use Procurve

 

[bugsy]

80% of the work we do is still data, and it's where our company's roots lie. The one thing I would say to any of you planning on working with data with no experience is that you're very likely to get call backs if you don't know what you're doing, and some of the questions above seem to suggest quite a lack of knowledge. What you're basically suggesting is the same as someone wanting to spur a socket in their house using speaker cable - "well it works when I plug it in so it must be ok!"

Data cabling is far more prone to damage and not as well protected as mains cables. There are many factors to take into account, as there is with electrical work. It took many years of experience for us to get to a stage where all our installs pass all the tests each time, as it is something you obvoisuly get a feel for over time. Our testing kit also cost £3k for Cat5/Cat6 so I'm not sure what you'd be planning on testing these installs with to make sure they comply with standards and will do the job your customer wants?

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh but people are always whinging on this forum about cowboys doing electrical work without knowing what they're doing and as we regularly lose work to cheaper sparkies who don't know what they're doing with data this touches a bit of a nerve with me as it's exactly the same thing. Only difference is there's (normally) no danger to the customer when they cock it up (apart from dangerously slow transfer rates!)

Re the courses I've never seen any decent ones advertised, might be best to do some reading on your own first to understand the principles and get practising with some punching down and testing. Continuity testers are a waste of time and won't prove that it will do the job, just whether or not you've crossed or mixed up any of the pairs - best to get something proper or leave it to someone with the right kit.

If you're just looking at a few nodes in a shed then to save yourself the hassle you could always just buy some pre-terminated (and tested) leads, and just pull a long one through ducting from the house (or use external Cat5 over a wire), then just use patch leads from the switch in the shed. And don't even think of using a hub, it's not the 1980's, you want a switch. As someone else said, the Netgear Pro stuff is ok for small installs like this and is pretty cheap. Anything bigger we usually use Procurve

Don't disagree with what you have said but this guy's only installing a small network for which data transmission speeds arn't criticle,and cat6 network verifiers can be bought for about £50.00 In my experiance it's the Data network companies that approach the sparks to do the cable install and punchdown network ports and then get their guys to sort everything in the comm's rooms .test the installation and certify it

 

[UNG]

I'm trying to understand how slow transfer rates can be "dangerous" or cause danger

Don't disagree with what you have said but this guy's only installing a small network for which data transmission speeds arn't criticle,and cat6 network verifiers can be bought for about £50.00 In my experiance it's the Data network companies that approach the sparks to do the cable install and punchdown network ports and then get their guys to sort everything in the comm's rooms .test the installation and certify it

I would have to agree with Bugsy as the OP's requirements were fairly basic

With regard to the previous post a lot of electrical contractors got into data cabling work because they were fed up with the high costs charged by the data sub contractors for cable installations when the cable containment was already installed and in some cases the cable

From experience of working with data companies installing various wireless equipment on a sub contract basis and being told I was expensive they still had no problems putting 100% mark up on my invoice which was embarassing when you refused to do uncosted work when asked by the client then find out he was being charged over 10K by the data company for your work

As with all industries the barriers go up when their playing field is being invaded unfortunately alot of electricians have all the skills necessary to install data and more besides

We all will have issues when work is done badly but if the work is done properly by a spark cheaper then I don't see any data company can moan and call the competition cowboys.

 

[Golden_Boy]

Out of curiosity why would you elect to install a switcher as opposed to a hubb?
and what have you got against wireless networks , we have installed number of these in commercial enviroments, there use is on the increase , BT have launched open zone a national network , whats the problem?

Its a switch not a switcher...

Do you know the diffrence between a switch and a hub? I think not.
Wireless networks will always be slower and less secure than cables, its the nature of the beast.
we use Wireless networks only when reqiuired for the use of hand held devices, everything else is hard wired. Do you ever wonder why the large network users dont use wireless?
They can never be 100% secure. even when encrypted. Thats why the likes of the MOD dont use wireless. In this age of illegal downloads it so much easier to keep a tab on whats happening on your network when there is no back door into your system.

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh but people are always whinging on this forum about cowboys doing electrical work without knowing what they're doing and as we regularly lose work to cheaper sparkies who don't know what they're doing with data this touches a bit of a nerve with me as it's exactly the same thing. Only difference is there's (normally) no danger to the customer when they cock it up (apart from dangerously slow transfer rates!)

I agree, slow tranfer rates can be fatal to you business.

 

[UNG]

Thats why the likes of the MOD dont use wireless.

They do but not on frequencies available to the public

 

[acvc]

Yes, just to confirm/clarify, this is just for one pc/printer etc, and the customer wants the option of working in any of the four corners of this small outbuilding (4m x 5m).

I wouldn't dream of doing anything commercial/industrial with the little knowledge and experience of data TX that I have.

I will use pre-made leads if the customer would prefer (I would too).

My main query was a) how to connect a feed from house data source, and b) how to feed to four data points in the outbuilding.

 

[bugsy]

Its a switch not a switcher...

Do you know the diffrence between a switch and a hub? I think not.(I do actually, and as this network would only consist of a max of three p.c.'s a hubb would surfice)
Wireless networks will always be slower and less secure than cables, its the nature of the beast.
we use Wireless networks only when reqiuired for the use of hand held devices, everything else is hard wired. Do you ever wonder why the large network users dont use wireless?
They can never be 100% secure. even when encrypted. Thats why the likes of the MOD dont use wireless. In this age of illegal downloads it so much easier to keep a tab on whats happening on your network when there is no back door into your system.

We are discussing two terminals in a an outbuilding not a connection to GCHQ , and even in wired networks there are 'back doors' wither your hacking wired or wireless the risk still exsits.



I agree, slow tranfer rates can be fatal to you business.

Calm down dear !

 

[pennywise]

Most of GCHQ is fibre optic I think now.

 

[UNG]

Bugsy

I think some posters are trying to use a sledge hammer to crack a peanut and also possibly frighten people off what is a simple job

Everybody has to start somewhere and some of the protectionism shown in this thread is trying to stop that

Having worked for some large CCTV companies as a sub contractor and spent days sorting out both simple and technical problems caused by their own trained and certified installation engineers, while my own training was gained reading a few books and a site engineer at one of my customers who had the confidence to let me loose on the site CCTV system , I believe everybody should be encouraged to expand their knowledge as you only learn when you make mistakes and then fix them

I asked ACVC his location in an earlier post but he has not replied so difficult to know if hands on help could be given

 

[cornburn]

Hi guys

Firstly with regards to the installation being dangerously slow, of course I meant dangerous to business and productivity as Golden boy said, not physically dangerous.

I also don't want to put anyone off trying to learn new skills, knowing data cabling can of course be very useful fo all different types of installs (such as CCTV as UNG said). We do most of our CCTV over Cat5 instead of coax now. For small installations like this maybe the client won't mind the quality of the link but my point was that there are many people doing these sort of installations without the right kit, as it is completely unregulated and anyone can set up in business doing it tomorrow.

Any decent data companies (which without sounding arrogant I class my own as) invest a lot of time and thousands of pounds into the right equipment to ensure standards are met and the clients get the best solution for their situation. As the sector is unregulated we lose work to people with none of the kit and enough experience to pull the cables and match the colours up. Then at some point in the future we get called in to help sort things out as although they can plug things in and get an internet connection the cable's no good, or they've changed a 100Mb switch to a 1Gb switch but the connection won't run that quickly, or one of many other problems we can identify with the right tools, and the original installer didn't know were there.

AC/VC - I'm sorry if I led the thread away from your original topic.If your client is happy with pre-terminated leads (which are dirt cheap anyway), I would use these to save yourself wasting money on tools. For 5 points it's not worth him buying a patch panel and you will need to spend £40+ for a pair of crimers that will do a half decent job. All the cheap ones only make a good connection on all pins about 1 out of every 4 times. If you use pre-terminated leads you will just need to run a long one from the house into the switch, then connect your 4 short leads into the same switch, that's all there is to it. If the client wants it tidier than that (in dado trunking) then you'd be best to use leads long enough to get from the switch to the location of the node, snip the RJ45 off the node end and punch it down into a Cat5e module in a faceplate. A punch down tool is only cheap and as you won't have anything to test the connection afterwards this will be your best bet - as long as you match the colours up and they're punched down fully this connection will be far more reliable than trying to crimp ends on.

 

[bugsy]

Bugsy

I think some posters are trying to use a sledge hammer to crack a peanut and also possibly frighten people off what is a simple job

Everybody has to start somewhere and some of the protectionism shown in this thread is trying to stop that

Having worked for some large CCTV companies as a sub contractor and spent days sorting out both simple and technical problems caused by their own trained and certified installation engineers, while my own training was gained reading a few books and a site engineer at one of my customers who had the confidence to let me loose on the site CCTV system , I believe everybody should be encouraged to expand their knowledge as you only learn when you make mistakes and then fix them

I asked ACVC his location in an earlier post but he has not replied so difficult to know if hands on help could be given

Quite agree, most of the IT cable installers I've come across arn't qualified anyway, even had to stop one lot running 100 cat5e's with a mains sub-main ( because someone had'nt done a proper site survey)

 

[acvc]

Pennywise.

I like the way you added on "I think" at the end. Classic!

Now we know that you know!

And we know too.

 

[gnuuser]

Or can you daisy-chain the sockets along as in electrical radial circuits?

Just a rough guide would be brilliant while a start learning/finding a friend who can!

Many thanks chaps and chapesses.

you can daisy chain cat5 but i dont recommend it.
every time there is a break in the circuit you expose the conductor to corrosion and electrical signal leakage.
in this instance you want to run a cable to each network outlet from a hub or network switch.

heres a wiki on it hope it helps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable

an arcnet network uses shielded rgu cabling and bnc connectors. these can be daisy chained and this type of network is called a token ring lan

 

[gnuuser]

you can daisy chain cat 5 but i dont recommend it
any break or joint in the wire leaves a weak spot open to corrosion and signal leakage.
an arcnet network can be daisy chained and is usually called a token ring lan.
this network generally uses rg type cabling and bnc connectors
heres a wiki on cat 5e and another on arcnet
Category 5 cable - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ARCNET - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
hope these help

 

[Stroppy]

Cat5/6 etc twisted pair is designed to work as a star topology, not a bus topology like 10base2 thin ethernet is, so I would be surprised if it would work at all when turned into a bus! Would be a lot less fault tolerant too. Just take a separate cable from the origin to where it is needed.

 

[gnuuser]

That is the reason I don't recommend it.

I did it once for a tightwad boss even after I told him there would be problems with it, he still wanted it done that way.
I was called back to change it a week later.
Got paid twice for it.

 

[Stroppy]

Did it work at all?

 

[gnuuser]

yes it worked but you could only use one computer on it. any more would have caused data/ communication faults
but you had multiple places you could connect to.

i told him it would only work like that but he didn't believe it.
ran new cables to each box to a hub so they could use more than one computer

 

[Stroppy]

Ha! Pretty much useless then! Some people won't be told eh?

 

[gnuuser]

That's for sure!
its too bad that many people base all their decisions by their money
And end up paying more later
He could have saved more by listening in the first place