Cat5/Cat6 Data courses

[eskimo39]

Hi does anyone know of any courses in Cat5/Cat6 Tv, Data & CCTV installation courses.

Really fancy looking into this line of work.

Thanks

 

[UNG]

For what they cost I tend to use 8 port hubs as you seem to run out of ports very quickly with the advances in technology

 

[bugsy]

Dont use a hub. get a 10/100 switch. When you say "modem" do you mean the box has only one socket for RJ45 plug or has it got several. A photo would be good. this is my area of expetise as I have been in the business professionally for 10 years. Do NOT use wireless if you can help it. Believe me cables are better every time. You can run up to 100 metres without any problems provided you take care with routing ( no pun intended ).

Out of curiosity why would you elect to install a switcher as opposed to a hubb?
and what have you got against wireless networks , we have installed number of these in commercial enviroments, there use is on the increase , BT have launched open zone a national network , whats the problem?

 

[cornburn]

80% of the work we do is still data, and it's where our company's roots lie. The one thing I would say to any of you planning on working with data with no experience is that you're very likely to get call backs if you don't know what you're doing, and some of the questions above seem to suggest quite a lack of knowledge. What you're basically suggesting is the same as someone wanting to spur a socket in their house using speaker cable - "well it works when I plug it in so it must be ok!"

Data cabling is far more prone to damage and not as well protected as mains cables. There are many factors to take into account, as there is with electrical work. It took many years of experience for us to get to a stage where all our installs pass all the tests each time, as it is something you obvoisuly get a feel for over time. Our testing kit also cost £3k for Cat5/Cat6 so I'm not sure what you'd be planning on testing these installs with to make sure they comply with standards and will do the job your customer wants?

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh but people are always whinging on this forum about cowboys doing electrical work without knowing what they're doing and as we regularly lose work to cheaper sparkies who don't know what they're doing with data this touches a bit of a nerve with me as it's exactly the same thing. Only difference is there's (normally) no danger to the customer when they cock it up (apart from dangerously slow transfer rates!)

Re the courses I've never seen any decent ones advertised, might be best to do some reading on your own first to understand the principles and get practising with some punching down and testing. Continuity testers are a waste of time and won't prove that it will do the job, just whether or not you've crossed or mixed up any of the pairs - best to get something proper or leave it to someone with the right kit.

If you're just looking at a few nodes in a shed then to save yourself the hassle you could always just buy some pre-terminated (and tested) leads, and just pull a long one through ducting from the house (or use external Cat5 over a wire), then just use patch leads from the switch in the shed. And don't even think of using a hub, it's not the 1980's, you want a switch. As someone else said, the Netgear Pro stuff is ok for small installs like this and is pretty cheap. Anything bigger we usually use Procurve

 

[bugsy]

80% of the work we do is still data, and it's where our company's roots lie. The one thing I would say to any of you planning on working with data with no experience is that you're very likely to get call backs if you don't know what you're doing, and some of the questions above seem to suggest quite a lack of knowledge. What you're basically suggesting is the same as someone wanting to spur a socket in their house using speaker cable - "well it works when I plug it in so it must be ok!"

Data cabling is far more prone to damage and not as well protected as mains cables. There are many factors to take into account, as there is with electrical work. It took many years of experience for us to get to a stage where all our installs pass all the tests each time, as it is something you obvoisuly get a feel for over time. Our testing kit also cost £3k for Cat5/Cat6 so I'm not sure what you'd be planning on testing these installs with to make sure they comply with standards and will do the job your customer wants?

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh but people are always whinging on this forum about cowboys doing electrical work without knowing what they're doing and as we regularly lose work to cheaper sparkies who don't know what they're doing with data this touches a bit of a nerve with me as it's exactly the same thing. Only difference is there's (normally) no danger to the customer when they cock it up (apart from dangerously slow transfer rates!)

Re the courses I've never seen any decent ones advertised, might be best to do some reading on your own first to understand the principles and get practising with some punching down and testing. Continuity testers are a waste of time and won't prove that it will do the job, just whether or not you've crossed or mixed up any of the pairs - best to get something proper or leave it to someone with the right kit.

If you're just looking at a few nodes in a shed then to save yourself the hassle you could always just buy some pre-terminated (and tested) leads, and just pull a long one through ducting from the house (or use external Cat5 over a wire), then just use patch leads from the switch in the shed. And don't even think of using a hub, it's not the 1980's, you want a switch. As someone else said, the Netgear Pro stuff is ok for small installs like this and is pretty cheap. Anything bigger we usually use Procurve

Don't disagree with what you have said but this guy's only installing a small network for which data transmission speeds arn't criticle,and cat6 network verifiers can be bought for about £50.00 In my experiance it's the Data network companies that approach the sparks to do the cable install and punchdown network ports and then get their guys to sort everything in the comm's rooms .test the installation and certify it

 

[UNG]

I'm trying to understand how slow transfer rates can be "dangerous" or cause danger

Don't disagree with what you have said but this guy's only installing a small network for which data transmission speeds arn't criticle,and cat6 network verifiers can be bought for about £50.00 In my experiance it's the Data network companies that approach the sparks to do the cable install and punchdown network ports and then get their guys to sort everything in the comm's rooms .test the installation and certify it

I would have to agree with Bugsy as the OP's requirements were fairly basic

With regard to the previous post a lot of electrical contractors got into data cabling work because they were fed up with the high costs charged by the data sub contractors for cable installations when the cable containment was already installed and in some cases the cable

From experience of working with data companies installing various wireless equipment on a sub contract basis and being told I was expensive they still had no problems putting 100% mark up on my invoice which was embarassing when you refused to do uncosted work when asked by the client then find out he was being charged over 10K by the data company for your work

As with all industries the barriers go up when their playing field is being invaded unfortunately alot of electricians have all the skills necessary to install data and more besides

We all will have issues when work is done badly but if the work is done properly by a spark cheaper then I don't see any data company can moan and call the competition cowboys.

 

[Golden_Boy]

Out of curiosity why would you elect to install a switcher as opposed to a hubb?
and what have you got against wireless networks , we have installed number of these in commercial enviroments, there use is on the increase , BT have launched open zone a national network , whats the problem?

Its a switch not a switcher...

Do you know the diffrence between a switch and a hub? I think not.
Wireless networks will always be slower and less secure than cables, its the nature of the beast.
we use Wireless networks only when reqiuired for the use of hand held devices, everything else is hard wired. Do you ever wonder why the large network users dont use wireless?
They can never be 100% secure. even when encrypted. Thats why the likes of the MOD dont use wireless. In this age of illegal downloads it so much easier to keep a tab on whats happening on your network when there is no back door into your system.

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh but people are always whinging on this forum about cowboys doing electrical work without knowing what they're doing and as we regularly lose work to cheaper sparkies who don't know what they're doing with data this touches a bit of a nerve with me as it's exactly the same thing. Only difference is there's (normally) no danger to the customer when they cock it up (apart from dangerously slow transfer rates!)

I agree, slow tranfer rates can be fatal to you business.

 

[UNG]

Thats why the likes of the MOD dont use wireless.

They do but not on frequencies available to the public

 

[acvc]

Yes, just to confirm/clarify, this is just for one pc/printer etc, and the customer wants the option of working in any of the four corners of this small outbuilding (4m x 5m).

I wouldn't dream of doing anything commercial/industrial with the little knowledge and experience of data TX that I have.

I will use pre-made leads if the customer would prefer (I would too).

My main query was a) how to connect a feed from house data source, and b) how to feed to four data points in the outbuilding.

 

[bugsy]

Its a switch not a switcher...

Do you know the diffrence between a switch and a hub? I think not.(I do actually, and as this network would only consist of a max of three p.c.'s a hubb would surfice)
Wireless networks will always be slower and less secure than cables, its the nature of the beast.
we use Wireless networks only when reqiuired for the use of hand held devices, everything else is hard wired. Do you ever wonder why the large network users dont use wireless?
They can never be 100% secure. even when encrypted. Thats why the likes of the MOD dont use wireless. In this age of illegal downloads it so much easier to keep a tab on whats happening on your network when there is no back door into your system.

We are discussing two terminals in a an outbuilding not a connection to GCHQ , and even in wired networks there are 'back doors' wither your hacking wired or wireless the risk still exsits.



I agree, slow tranfer rates can be fatal to you business.

Calm down dear !

 

[pennywise]

Most of GCHQ is fibre optic I think now.

 

[UNG]

Bugsy

I think some posters are trying to use a sledge hammer to crack a peanut and also possibly frighten people off what is a simple job

Everybody has to start somewhere and some of the protectionism shown in this thread is trying to stop that

Having worked for some large CCTV companies as a sub contractor and spent days sorting out both simple and technical problems caused by their own trained and certified installation engineers, while my own training was gained reading a few books and a site engineer at one of my customers who had the confidence to let me loose on the site CCTV system , I believe everybody should be encouraged to expand their knowledge as you only learn when you make mistakes and then fix them

I asked ACVC his location in an earlier post but he has not replied so difficult to know if hands on help could be given

 

[cornburn]

Hi guys

Firstly with regards to the installation being dangerously slow, of course I meant dangerous to business and productivity as Golden boy said, not physically dangerous.

I also don't want to put anyone off trying to learn new skills, knowing data cabling can of course be very useful fo all different types of installs (such as CCTV as UNG said). We do most of our CCTV over Cat5 instead of coax now. For small installations like this maybe the client won't mind the quality of the link but my point was that there are many people doing these sort of installations without the right kit, as it is completely unregulated and anyone can set up in business doing it tomorrow.

Any decent data companies (which without sounding arrogant I class my own as) invest a lot of time and thousands of pounds into the right equipment to ensure standards are met and the clients get the best solution for their situation. As the sector is unregulated we lose work to people with none of the kit and enough experience to pull the cables and match the colours up. Then at some point in the future we get called in to help sort things out as although they can plug things in and get an internet connection the cable's no good, or they've changed a 100Mb switch to a 1Gb switch but the connection won't run that quickly, or one of many other problems we can identify with the right tools, and the original installer didn't know were there.

AC/VC - I'm sorry if I led the thread away from your original topic.If your client is happy with pre-terminated leads (which are dirt cheap anyway), I would use these to save yourself wasting money on tools. For 5 points it's not worth him buying a patch panel and you will need to spend £40+ for a pair of crimers that will do a half decent job. All the cheap ones only make a good connection on all pins about 1 out of every 4 times. If you use pre-terminated leads you will just need to run a long one from the house into the switch, then connect your 4 short leads into the same switch, that's all there is to it. If the client wants it tidier than that (in dado trunking) then you'd be best to use leads long enough to get from the switch to the location of the node, snip the RJ45 off the node end and punch it down into a Cat5e module in a faceplate. A punch down tool is only cheap and as you won't have anything to test the connection afterwards this will be your best bet - as long as you match the colours up and they're punched down fully this connection will be far more reliable than trying to crimp ends on.

 

[bugsy]

Bugsy

I think some posters are trying to use a sledge hammer to crack a peanut and also possibly frighten people off what is a simple job

Everybody has to start somewhere and some of the protectionism shown in this thread is trying to stop that

Having worked for some large CCTV companies as a sub contractor and spent days sorting out both simple and technical problems caused by their own trained and certified installation engineers, while my own training was gained reading a few books and a site engineer at one of my customers who had the confidence to let me loose on the site CCTV system , I believe everybody should be encouraged to expand their knowledge as you only learn when you make mistakes and then fix them

I asked ACVC his location in an earlier post but he has not replied so difficult to know if hands on help could be given

Quite agree, most of the IT cable installers I've come across arn't qualified anyway, even had to stop one lot running 100 cat5e's with a mains sub-main ( because someone had'nt done a proper site survey)

 

[acvc]

Pennywise.

I like the way you added on "I think" at the end. Classic!

Now we know that you know!

And we know too.

 

[gnuuser]

Or can you daisy-chain the sockets along as in electrical radial circuits?

Just a rough guide would be brilliant while a start learning/finding a friend who can!

Many thanks chaps and chapesses.

you can daisy chain cat5 but i dont recommend it.
every time there is a break in the circuit you expose the conductor to corrosion and electrical signal leakage.
in this instance you want to run a cable to each network outlet from a hub or network switch.

heres a wiki on it hope it helps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable

an arcnet network uses shielded rgu cabling and bnc connectors. these can be daisy chained and this type of network is called a token ring lan