CH turning on by itself problem

[chris murphy]

Yeah it would mean it would be on all the time and as I say I haven't come across that personally myself, normally the valve will jan and allow water to pass or the motor will stop operating and the boiler won't fire.

I think we went a little bit off topic so I was not strictly relating this all to the above issue. Without a little more detail I think it would be hard to try and identify the issue on this particular problem.

Sam

"Hello again Sam",


This was always going to be `One of Those` - this type of Enquiry - although obviously Welcomed on the Forum - it is an example of WHY the `Diagnosis in the Pub` does NOT usually work !

As You know this kind of Problem can be thought about in terms of trying to work it out by `Process of Elimination` - BUT that must be combined with actual Testing of the Wiring / Components - in Situ.


Chris


P.S. I have replied to You on the Subject about the £200.00 Part P Course - Again this is NOT to contradict You - Just to Clarify My points.

 

[UNG]

Thinking about this had a problem on my own heating about 12 years ago just after I moved in (new build property) the system was wired to allow a pump over run so that residual heat in the boiler could be dissipated to avoid damaging the boiler. Under certain circumstances when the programmer turned the heating off the heating continued to run due to a back feed in the wiring turning the spur off and on again cleared it till the same conditions occurred again which could be a few days or weeks.

Quite entertaining watching the builders spark trying to locate the fault I even created the fault for him a few times and after a couple of hours had to tell him how to sort it out as he was getting no where

 

[invisable]

Thinking about this had a problem on my own heating about 12 years ago just after I moved in (new build property) the system was wired to allow a pump over run so that residual heat in the boiler could be dissipated to avoid damaging the boiler. Under certain circumstances when the programmer turned the heating off the heating continued to run due to a back feed in the wiring turning the spur off and on again cleared it till the same conditions occurred again which could be a few days or weeks.

Quite entertaining watching the builders spark trying to locate the fault I even created the fault for him a few times and after a couple of hours had to tell him how to sort it out as he was getting no where

I have seen the exact same problem before. people connecting the pump live with the boiler live a wiring centre, then also linking the pump live output at the boiler back to the same connection at the wiring centre.

MCM :
If your having problems with this system and you havnt found the fault and your sure its not a frost stat kicking in reccomend you go and pick yourself up a wiring centre (drayton LWC1) and follow the instructions they are so easy and that one mentioned has cable clamps to secure the cables. It may be quicker for you to do that then spend hours trying to trace back the wires to locate the fault charge the a hourly rate for how long it takes then you can be sure its not the wiring.
the reason im telling you this is because:
1) a programer fails it is very unlikley to just turn the boiler on for a few mins then turn it off
2) same with a valve sticking it willl stick or it wont stick it wont just stick in the middle of the night, what i mean is if a valve is stuck it will always be open like a tap eg heating will get hot when water is on. that would cause frost stat to heat up rads but they would have noticed the problem before when the just wanted hw on.

 

[chris murphy]

I have seen the exact same problem before. people connecting the pump live with the boiler live a wiring centre, then also linking the pump live output at the boiler back to the same connection at the wiring centre.

MCM :
If your having problems with this system and you havnt found the fault and your sure its not a frost stat kicking in reccomend you go and pick yourself up a wiring centre (drayton LWC1) and follow the instructions they are so easy and that one mentioned has cable clamps to secure the cables. It may be quicker for you to do that then spend hours trying to trace back the wires to locate the fault charge the a hourly rate for how long it takes then you can be sure its not the wiring.
the reason im telling you this is because:
1) a programer fails it is very unlikley to just turn the boiler on for a few mins then turn it off
2) same with a valve sticking it willl stick or it wont stick it wont just stick in the middle of the night, what i mean is if a valve is stuck it will always be open like a tap eg heating will get hot when water is on. that would cause frost stat to heat up rads but they would have noticed the problem before when the just wanted hw on.

"Hello invisable",


Regarding THIS part of your GOOD Advice:


QUOTE:

1) a programmer fails it is very unlikely to just turn the boiler on for a few mins then turn it off

2) same with a valve sticking it willl stick or it wont stick it wont just stick in the middle of the night, what i mean is if a valve is stuck it will always be open like a tap eg heating will get hot when water is on. that would cause frost stat to heat up rads but they would have noticed the problem before when the just wanted hw on.[/QUOTE]


I have been stating these [similar] points during My various Posts on this Subject - As I am a Heating Engineer - perhaps NOW that an Electrician has stated similar details the Original Poster and others will be able to view My points as `Valid` - ?


I Quoted those points of yours and stated that they were Good Advice - Not because the `Rewire with a Wiring Centre` was not Good Advice - I just wanted to identify the points that were similar to what I have been stating.


I was however under the impression that the Heating System had been operating correctly - until a Malfiunction caused the problem of the unscheduled On Periods - during the Night.

When I was Informed by a Member that it is `Quite Usual` to come across a Programmer Malfunctioning that can cause this - and then Work Correctly for the rest of the time / Day - I was Surprised - I could NOT imagine this occurring - but that scenario was then Confirmed by another Member - I had to comment that perhaps I just did not know of this happening - let alone on a regular basis - Words to that effect.


Perhaps We might find out the Result of rectifying the Problem - although it has been Unresolved for quite a while now.


Regards,


Chris

 

[sambotc]

See personally, my theory would be that a rewire or similar (change of wiring centre for example) would be the last thing on my list of things to explore given the fact that it is very unlikely for the wiring to fail or change by its on accord? Personally, anything with a mechanical element would be my first point of call as this is more likely to fail or change by itself.

I'm not saying i'm right, or that this is the way it should be done, just advising of my way of thinking when trying to fault find a problem like this.

Given the fact the OP has not updated this post in a while now, ,I would say that it has either been fixed, or interest has been lost so I think i'll unsubscribe to the thread now, I hope it has been rectified and it would have been nice to hear what the offending object was.

Sam

 

[chris murphy]

See personally, my theory would be that a rewire or similar (change of wiring centre for example) would be the last thing on my list of things to explore given the fact that it is very unlikely for the wiring to fail or change by its on accord? Personally, anything with a mechanical element would be my first point of call as this is more likely to fail or change by itself.


I'm not saying i'm right, or that this is the way it should be done, just advising of my way of thinking when trying to fault find a problem like this.

Given the fact the OP has not updated this post in a while now, ,I would say that it has either been fixed, or interest has been lost so I think i'll unsubscribe to the thread now, I hope it has been rectified and it would have been nice to hear what the offending object was.

Sam

"Hello Sam",


When I stated that I was under the impression that the Wiring was `O.K.` - with the Heating System having been operating correctly [?] previously.

And that a `Malfunction` then occurred which caused the present Problem.

Plus all of the possibilities that You and I `Discussed` on here - I was basically asserting that it would be Unlikely that this is a Wiring Fault - BUT - in light of the Fault having NOT been identified - ?

I think that I also asked that the result of identifying the Fault be Posted on here for the interest of `Us` who had replied to the Original Poster - IF they are still involved - ?


Regards,


Chris

 

[invisable]

Looks like this problem will remain unsolved as mcm has not replied for a while.
Chris:
I agree with you I used to wire about 6 heating a week (mainly y plans) for a company that used to install them for the council all around Sussex .We used to get the odd valve failing and sticking, and programers that just had stopped working or stuck in the on posistion, sometimes when you isolate the power to the programmer then turn it on this can stop/reset it but never in my time, have i ever seen a programer that just decides to turn the heating on and off in the middle of the night. They just tend to stay on untill there isolated.

About the rewire bit I assumed it was a new install so I take back the statement about the rewire, as it would unlikely be a wiring fault
I bet it was something simple one last thing I would check if I was mcm is that the customer hasnt reset the time on the programmer after the clocks changed and now pm and am is round the wrong way so there afternoon heating boost is coming on at 1 in the morning rather then 1 in the afternoon.

e

 

[chris murphy]

Looks like this problem will remain unsolved as mcm has not replied for a while.
Chris:
I agree with you I used to wire about 6 heating a week (mainly y plans) for a company that used to install them for the council all around Sussex .We used to get the odd valve failing and sticking, and programers that just had stopped working or stuck in the on posistion, sometimes when you isolate the power to the programmer then turn it on this can stop/reset it but never in my time, have i ever seen a programer that just decides to turn the heating on and off in the middle of the night. They just tend to stay on untill there isolated.

About the rewire bit I assumed it was a new install so I take back the statement about the rewire, as it would unlikely be a wiring fault
I bet it was something simple one last thing I would check if I was mcm is that the customer hasnt reset the time on the programmer after the clocks changed and now pm and am is round the wrong way so there afternoon heating boost is coming on at 1 in the morning rather then 1 in the afternoon.

e

"Hello invisable",


As You wrote it can often be `Simple` things that are the cause of Central Heating `Faults`.

I have found a couple of times on this Forum that in the process of Posting Questions and `Advice` in order to TRY and `Diagnose from a Distance / Description` - that the Original Poster refuses / declines to Answer Questions which having the Answers to would help All of Us to eliminate items from being the cause of their Problem.

This has happened to Me quite recently - Even when I posted a Request / Reminder which was `Addressed` to the Original Poster He still did NOT Answer My Questions - I had written some Very Long Posts about His Boiler Problem and when I asked directly that He Answer some Questions that I had previously Posted to Him - and Had He tried a particular Operation on the Heating Programmer ? - He still did NOT Answer !

I felt that this was VERY Disrespectful and that I had Wasted My Time !

Basic `Courtesy` would suggest that He would NOT just Ignore My requests for those Answers - And then Defy My second Request - I was responding to HIS Boiler Problem - the Answers might have enabled Us to eliminate some of the possible causes of the Problem.


I am Definitely NOT the `Over Sensitive` Type - BUT - I will Definitely NOT continue Writing Answers / Suggestions / Questions when People seem to decide to Completely Disregard My attempts to HELP Them !


Regards,


Chris

 

[oldtimer]

Chris I totally agree with you I also have noticed a trend where the originator asks the question then we try and tease more information out of them and then i find we are all discussing it to death meanwhile the originator does not even get back to tell us if it is fixed and what was wrong as I said this forum is to help each other out but I am finding more and more that we appear to have a lot of serial DIYers pretending to be sparks and I know that everybody does not know everything but like you I think i will pass on some of these posts

 

[chris murphy]

Chris I totally agree with you I also have noticed a trend where the originator asks the question then we try and tease more information out of them and then i find we are all discussing it to death meanwhile the originator does not even get back to tell us if it is fixed and what was wrong as I said this forum is to help each other out but I am finding more and more that we appear to have a lot of serial DIYers pretending to be sparks and I know that everybody does not know everything but like you I think i will pass on some of these posts

"Hello oldtimer",


"Thanks for your reply"


Something that particularly irritated Me regarding the example that I mentioned was that the first response to Me completely disreguarded everything that I had written and Asked.


The Reply which was `Addressed` to My Name did NOT refer to a single thing that I wrote - it was as if EVERYTHING that I wrote was Irrelevant !

When I then ASKED Him to `Please reply to My Questions as this would Help ALL of Us to eliminate some possible items` - Words to that effect - I did NOT receive a Reply.


I regard that as Insulting !


I was trying to Help Him to identify what the Problem was primarily BECAUSE He had not tried to infer that He had any Electrical Knowledge - and because British Gas had not been able to Find the cause of the Problem.

I think that He may have decided that as He had Heating System / Boiler Cover with British Gas - He would `Leave it to Them`.

In which case IF You are NOT prepared to Answer the Questions that are asked of You on here by People who are genuinely Trying to Help You - Don`t Post your Problem on here !

THIS MAY NOT BE THE ATTITUDE OF THE MODERATORS / ADMINISTRATORS ON THIS FORUM - IT IS JUST MY OPINION ON THE MATTER.


Before someone `reminds` / informs Me that this kind of Behavior is Frequent on ALL Forums - I know that - But it does not mean that I should NOT Comment upon it.


Regards,


Chris

 

[mcm]

Update on problem.

After posting first of all I asked a friend who I used to work with to look at it, as he used to wire all the boilers.

He went round and said it was the programmer so changed programmer and still same problem. Went back today to check all wiring and all seems ok. Wiring is as following:

Live, neutral and earth from spur to programer.
Ch on to wiring centre joined to white of 3 port valve.
Hw on to wiring centre from programer joined onto cylinder stat.
Return on cinder stat connected to live to boiler and Orange on 3 port valve.
Satisfied from cylinder stat joined to grey on 3 port valve. The programmer does not have a Hw off that should be joined also with the grey on 3 port valve. This is not a problem as they have the Hw set on all the time.

All the wiring seems to be ok if the above is correct. But the ch does not seem to switch off even with the programmer turned off.

Tested voltage on Hw on only at Orange of 3 port valve and gives 230v if stat is turned down 230v goes away.

At white of valve reading 230v with Hw on and ch off. Disconnected white at programmer and getting 230v still but nothing on cable to programmer meaning voltage coming from valve side. Is this correct for the valve to bring the white live when Hw is on? Or is it possible its back feeding at valve causing ch to come live?

Sorry for the long reply

Thanks

 

[invisable]

It's the 3 port valve then. This is what valves tend to do when they go. I have a question what sort/ make of 2 chanel programmer doesn't havnt a hw off, it would be nice to know so I never fit one. Good luck

 

[mcm]

Hi invisible

The programmer has a hot water off its the wiring that is missing the core from programmer to the 3 port valve connected to grey on valve and satisfied on cylinder stat.

As above when the Hw was on the ch was off it was giving 230v on white on 3 port valve coming from valve side not programmer. So you think it will be the valve faulty?

Thanks

 

[invisable]

Sounds like it.
Can you discconect the valve from the wiring centre (if it wired like that) then just check your cables coming back from the programmer then you could be 100% sure.
As mentioned before in this thread if it was working fine before then it is more than likley it would always be a bit of faulty equipment and it is normally the valves that go, and when they go that is what normally happens.

 

[brooky25]

Hi, Been to a job today with exactly the same kind of symptoms. Boiler firing up in the middle of the night when programmer is turned off but the pump is not running so pipes are banging because of heat waking the customer up. Thought it was a problem with frost stat as this is what plumber said to me. This is a s plan system but boiler is in garage, side of boiler is a 15 amp switch and frost stat. Also there is a pipe stat above boiler. Cannot understand why it would have a pipe stat as I thought boiler would have a built in overheat stat and frost stat. When I turned up the pipe stat from 20 c to 40 c the boiler fan fired up ? So basically when pipe stat falls below 20 c it fires up the boiler. Back of frost has a perm live into terminal 3 which should be sw feed back up the yellow in my book? this has confused me all afternoon and hopefully I have now sorted problem by removing the pipe stat. I thought that the pipe stat would be for overheat not call or am i wrong.
Any advice would be great to clear my head up
thanks