ABB ESB40-40-230AC/DC - https://new.abb.com/products/GHE3491102R0006/esb40-40-230ac-dc-installation-contactor

The ABB contactor is a good make and well suited. It is a silent or hum-free design and the 40A AC1 (resistive and low inductance or PF nearly 1) rating for the contacts is excellent for your application.

I don't know what the Uruguay electrical regulations stipulate for switching to countenance single pole switching. At the moment all your contactors are used for double pole switching; this is certainly necessary for those UFH elements wired across L1 and L2 but for those across L1-N and L2-N single pole may be allowed - I just don't know. However, double pole is to be preferred because it maintains uniformity of wiring scheme for the UFH system and there is some advantage in splitting the arc across two pairs of contacts when they open to prolong life. I would not opt for single pole switching.

The aforesaid means that to continue with double pole switching you would need to obtain a 6 pole contactor if you wanted one to switch three sets of heating elements in the way a showed in my last diagram. Such a contactor I is rarer than 4 pole and thus I expect pricier. I don't know if you can obtain a silent 6 pole contactor.

Using one contactor to switch 2 or more UFH zones has two drawbacks; if it fails you have lost all heating and when it closes or opens the large current change will cause a noticeable and perhaps troublesome voltage transient in your home and maybe to your neighbours. Far better to sub-divide the load switching over 3 contactors to reduce the magnitude of each transient step. Already I notice that you have quite a variation in supply voltage as loads in your home are powered on and off which indicates a higher supply impedance than is typical in the UK. Switching the UFH zones as one will be noticeable and annoying.

Which leads on to the idea of switching each zone directly using a wifi 'contactor'. In theory this is possible but great care is needed to ensure the power contacts have an adequate AC1 rating and can cope with frequent switching during the day. I'd have to see the specification to comment further. Would it be silent? Would I do it in 'one step'? - no, because I like my functionality appropriately realised in the best possible way. I speak from an industrial background so in the domestic setting one might be more inclined to economy of components.

Sorry about the rather long-winded reply - I have nothing else to do.

:)
 
ABB ESB40-40-230AC/DC - https://new.abb.com/products/GHE3491102R0006/esb40-40-230ac-dc-installation-contactor

The ABB contactor is a good make and well suited. It is a silent or hum-free design and the 40A AC1 (resistive and low inductance or PF nearly 1) rating for the contacts is excellent for your application.

I don't know what the Uruguay electrical regulations stipulate for switching to countenance single pole switching. At the moment all your contactors are used for double pole switching; this is certainly necessary for those UFH elements wired across L1 and L2 but for those across L1-N and L2-N single pole may be allowed - I just don't know. However, double pole is to be preferred because it maintains uniformity of wiring scheme for the UFH system and there is some advantage in splitting the arc across two pairs of contacts when they open to prolong life. I would not opt for single pole switching.

The aforesaid means that to continue with double pole switching you would need to obtain a 6 pole contactor if you wanted one to switch three sets of heating elements in the way a showed in my last diagram. Such a contactor I is rarer than 4 pole and thus I expect pricier. I don't know if you can obtain a silent 6 pole contactor.

Using one contactor to switch 2 or more UFH zones has two drawbacks; if it fails you have lost all heating and when it closes or opens the large current change will cause a noticeable and perhaps troublesome voltage transient in your home and maybe to your neighbours. Far better to sub-divide the load switching over 3 contactors to reduce the magnitude of each transient step. Already I notice that you have quite a variation in supply voltage as loads in your home are powered on and off which indicates a higher supply impedance than is typical in the UK. Switching the UFH zones as one will be noticeable and annoying.

Which leads on to the idea of switching each zone directly using a wifi 'contactor'. In theory this is possible but great care is needed to ensure the power contacts have an adequate AC1 rating and can cope with frequent switching during the day. I'd have to see the specification to comment further. Would it be silent? Would I do it in 'one step'? - no, because I like my functionality appropriately realised in the best possible way. I speak from an industrial background so in the domestic setting one might be more inclined to economy of components.

Sorry about the rather long-winded reply - I have nothing else to do.

:)
Many thanks for the full write up.
I'll look for 3 abb contactors following your advice.
Now the upstairs box is a right mess and I want to tidy it up.
Looks like we have 1 contactor for 4 zones. 4 live cables going out but one neutral for each 2 live cables. Live cables on terminals 2 and 3(2 coming out of each). I'll need to draw this out as looking at the mess it's impossible to see. I traced which wires go to which ufh last night as I want to control my office ufh independently.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20200420_202803.jpg
    IMG_20200420_202803.jpg
    109.1 KB · Views: 7
As you are the father, spouse and breadwinner please take heed of this: If you are going to be putting your fingers in among the wiring you must invest in an approved voltage indicator in order to prove dead once you have de-energised and isolated. A digital voltmeter or a neon screwdriver are not reliable. You do not need to spend much. I have a DILOG because they are good value for money and I rarely do any work these days preferring to employ an electrician for anything major.

ISOPK2 | Di-LOG - https://www.dilog.co.uk/product/isopk2/

Time spent discovering how things have been wired is well spent - do not assume anything.
 
Last edited:
As you are the father, spouse and breadwinner please take heed of this: If you are going to be putting your fingers in among the wiring you must invest in an approved voltage indicator in order to prove dead once you have de-energised and isolated. A digital voltmeter or a neon screwdriver are not reliable. You do not need to spend much. I have a DILOG because they are good value for money and I rarely do any work these days preferring to employ an electrician for anything major.

ISOPK2 | Di-LOG - https://www.dilog.co.uk/product/isopk2/

Time spent discovering how things have been wired is well spent - do not assume anything.
Thanks for the link of suggested equipment Marconi. Sound advice.

I've done a sketch of how I believe 2 of the rooms are wired up upstairs. From one of the 4 pole outlets they have 2 live wires going to each room. Just one blue neutral though on series. I would like to have these 2 controlled rooms controlled independently. Not sure how that would be achieved without installing a new digital thermostat on the wall. Would like to have them cabled independently like I do downstairs with the double pole contactors or something similar. They only draw about 1000w each.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20200425_174048.jpg
    IMG_20200425_174048.jpg
    50.7 KB · Views: 5
I'm thinking I'd probably need to feed an individual neutral cable to one of the rooms so they are separate circuits.

I'll wait for advice.

Thanks
 
Good morning. Re #44. Could you measure the voltage between earth and the red and then the blue on the supply side of the contactor to establish their potential please. I suspect they are connected to L1 and L2.
 
Good morning. Re #44. Could you measure the voltage between earth and the red and then the blue on the supply side of the contactor to establish their potential please. I suspect they are connected to L1 and L2.
Good morning

Red reads 23v
Blue 226v

So poles 1-4:
207
23
23
226

Many thanks
 
Did you spot the danger in the wiring shown in your picture in #42? You will have to sleeve the red conductor or shorten it. Until then keep your fingers out!

The zone you mention is fed across L-N and I am pretty sure L2-N because your L2 is higher voltage than your L1 in previous readings.

You will need two double pole contactors each supplied by the same L-N pair as now.

Each of the elements is then fed by a double pole output from one or the other contactor.

Alas, you will have to run in a new neutral to the point where the elements' Ns are joined - but you expected the requirement to do that. It was lazy wiring not to run one in the first place. Use the same thickness cable as now.

You can then think about one of these wireless thermostats and receivers for each element such as these:

Honeywell RF DT92E1000 Wireless Digital Room Thermostat | ElectricalDirect - https://www.electricaldirect.co.uk/product/honeywell-rf-dt92e1000-wireless-digital-room-thermostat-611235?vat=1&shopping=true&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhZr1BRCLARIsALjRVQP_fehCHwVa2GQkvKOaTv03u74WSe2iyqTlWLn4Ehsbqn3kHMTNCMcaAqTsEALw_wcB

Or a programmable wireless thermostat like this one:

2 in 1 Programmable Wireless Room Thermostat - 22874 - Controls | BES.co.uk - https://www.bes.co.uk/2-in-1-programmable-wireless-room-thermostat-22874
 
Did you spot the danger in the wiring shown in your picture in #42? You will have to sleeve the red conductor or shorten it. Until then keep your fingers out!

The zone you mention is fed across L-N and I am pretty sure L2-N because your L2 is higher voltage than your L1 in previous readings.

You will need two double pole contactors each supplied by the same L-N pair as now.

Each of the elements is then fed by a double pole output from one or the other contactor.

Alas, you will have to run in a new neutral to the point where the elements' Ns are joined - but you expected the requirement to do that. It was lazy wiring not to run one in the first place. Use the same thickness cable as now.

You can then think about one of these wireless thermostats and receivers for each element such as these:

Honeywell RF DT92E1000 Wireless Digital Room Thermostat | ElectricalDirect - https://www.electricaldirect.co.uk/product/honeywell-rf-dt92e1000-wireless-digital-room-thermostat-611235?vat=1&shopping=true&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhZr1BRCLARIsALjRVQP_fehCHwVa2GQkvKOaTv03u74WSe2iyqTlWLn4Ehsbqn3kHMTNCMcaAqTsEALw_wcB

Or a programmable wireless thermostat like this one:

2 in 1 Programmable Wireless Room Thermostat - 22874 - Controls | BES.co.uk - https://www.bes.co.uk/2-in-1-programmable-wireless-room-thermostat-22874

Thanks Marconi. If you feel the urge a diagram would be very helpful thanks.

Yes looks like the 2 other zones have the same set up. (using the 1st and 2nd poles each going to 2 zones). 6 zones in total from the 3 poles.

btw that black tape on the red cable is just holding the 3 wires in a bundle don't worry no connections under the insulating tape. Looks like they ran out of cable ties!! A lot of laziness in this set up.
 
Hi Marconi,

Hope this works as I've been unable to upload any more photos which is odd. Maybe a limitation on my account? Used an image sharing site for these.
Think I will need to draw a diagram as its such a mess in here. Put some tape around a couple of cables just to label them




 
I'll get a drawing to you later once I have a moment to remove the plastic panel cover to check again. In the meantime I've set up a nice automation server on a docker. Some scripting with the sensors and works brilliantly. So many options here.

 
Hi Marconi.

I believe this is how they have wired it. 2 of the UFH zones are tiny (1m2) bathrooms so use very little. Not 100% on the middle UFH but looks like they share the same cables.

 
Hello. What I cannot gauge from the photos is how much space is available on the DIN rail to clip on new double pole contactors. The space available for the new ones determines how many separately controlled zones can be configured. Could you have a gander and tell me please?
 
If I remove the old timer on the left and move the cbs to the left I have about 22/23 cm to play with. Would like to have the one power meter in there (about 1cm wide) measuring all the kWh used by all the combined UFH zones. Good up to 40amps.

I'd be happy if I could just separate the last 2 UFH zones on the right.

Many thanks
 
A standard DIN module is 17.5mm wide. So with two power meters that is 35mm - one for L1 and one for L2. Which leaves 220-35 = 185mm

A double pole 20A ABB contactor is a standard DIN module -the spec says 18mm. So you could fit in up to 10 of them.

ABB ESB20-20N-01 - https://new.abb.com/products/1SBE121111R0120/esb20-20n-01-installation-contactor

Could you have a think about how you want the zones arranged knowing that you have room for circa 12 standard DIN modules - and do you want a power meter for each zone?
 
A standard DIN module is 17.5mm wide. So with two power meters that is 35mm - one for L1 and one for L2. Which leaves 220-35 = 185mm

A double pole 20A ABB contactor is a standard DIN module -the spec says 18mm. So you could fit in up to 10 of them.

ABB ESB20-20N-01 - https://new.abb.com/products/1SBE121111R0120/esb20-20n-01-installation-contactor

Could you have a think about how you want the zones arranged knowing that you have room for circa 12 standard DIN modules - and do you want a power meter for each zone?

Hi Marconi,

I will visit my local home department store to see what they have available in terms of contactors first. We don't always have a wide selection of products and can be pricey.

I should be able to fit a new neutral cable into one or 2 of the rooms as you mentioned earlier to separate the 2 bedrooms but the rooms further away could be problematic if I need to fit more cables. I've had issues trying to get my fishline down some of the conduits. Quite a spaghetti junction! Took me 2 days to get the cat6 from my office down to the living room!

I'll get back to you.
Thanks very much for all your time on this.
 
Sorry been absent for a while. Worries with work and the pandemic etc.
Been difficult to find suitable contactors at a reasonable price. Found some 4 pole contactors. Shouldn't be any issue swapping 2 x 2 pole contactors for 1 x 4 pole should it? 2 live and 2 neutral inputs and outputs. Each 2 pole is only drawing about 10 amps. The 4 pole is a a 40amp.

Thanks
 
At first blush they look rather cheap and cheerful. Here is a proposal: I will send you some ABB silent relays and perhaps you will make a donation to a children's charity in Uruguay akin to the UK's NSPCC - what say you?
 
At first blush they look rather cheap and cheerful. Here is a proposal: I will send you some ABB silent relays and perhaps you will make a donation to a children's charity in Uruguay akin to the UK's NSPCC - what say you?

Wow really appreciate the offer. Very kind of you indeed.

Unfortunately, the customs rules here are very strict and could end up paying a fortune in taxes and import duty fees requiring proof of purchase etc. List goes on of extra costs on top of the 60% tax.
This is why even cheap chinese goods are expensive here.

I'll probably just go for this model and try one first.

Kind regards
 
I understand. I will do some research tomorrow morning over a coffee. At 10 A and rated at 40 A they are most likely suitable - but I thought you wanted quiet contactors(*)

I, and maybe many others, have a bit of a downer on Chinese products at the moment if that is where this contactor is from. I find Italian made stuff good value - but then I have Italian ancestry with the surname 'Solari' - so I may be biased ;-)

* - We could try to be clever and put good but noisy contactors inside soundproofed enclosures? I'll have a look at materials and ways to attenuate the annoying hum. At first pass I wonder about some lead and rubber combination.
 
Last edited:
Yes I would prefer fairly quiet contactors. Not sure how much noise these would make tbh.

One out of the 3 downstairs is really buzzing loudly (the buzzing varies from day to day, from quite loud to a sound like its vibrating out of the module box), obviously not very well.

As you know the one upstairs is a 4 pole ABB and you cannot hear it at all. Super silent.

I have asked the supplier how much noise they produce.
Update: He's just replied and said they are not quiet.
[automerge]1591897472[/automerge]
oh look in this moment new models have appeared online.

Steck



 
Last edited:
Remember to switch off all the electricity and check everything is dead before you work on the swap. Label up the wiring too so the pairs are identifiable and recorded somehow near the contactor. Last, all connections must be tight and use all the strands of the conductors without any of them showing outside the entry to the terminal channel. Then it will nearly be as good a job as done by DPG ( :-) ) - but only nearly so don't get carried away. Let us know how you get on - pictures are always good if you want your work checked and assessed.
 
Remember to switch off all the electricity and check everything is dead before you work on the swap. Label up the wiring too so the pairs are identifiable and recorded somehow near the contactor. Last, all connections must be tight and use all the strands of the conductors without any of them showing outside the entry to the terminal channel. Then it will nearly be as good a job as done by DPG ( :) ) - but only nearly so don't get carried away. Let us know how you get on - pictures are always good if you want your work checked and assessed.
Thanks will do.

Just purchased 3 of them. Got some 4mm wiring also to replace the 2 x 2mm wiring.
One of the 3 old ones was vibrating so much this morning I had to turn it off as my son was having a zoom school class and was interfering with his class! (home schooling still continuing here in Uruguay)
 
The UFH heating is cleverly connected across L1, L2 and N as shown in the diagram below. The black bar above the 5 cbs confused me; the voltage measurements clarified the situation.

Sometime please tell me L1 to L2 voltage. I am pretty sure you have a 3 phase supply arranged as I have drawn.

Otherwise I would swap the contactors for silent ones. Solid state switches can fail short-circuit which would not be a good thing so don't fit them. They also need substantial heatsinks and ventilation around these because they would get too hot without. If it was me I'd buy silent contactors. The three sets of UFH are each protected by a 20A cb. A 32A contactor is beefy enough to carry up to 20A 'all day long' and be more reliable than one rated close to 20A. Space the power meters and contactors apart so that there is some air movement and one does not warm the other.

Thank you for your patience!

:)

Marconi


Hi Marconi,

Hope you are well.

Just revisiting this topic. Everything is running fine but had a doubt about the type of phase we have. The utility company changed our meter this week with a new smart meter after we had an issue with our bills after using the UFH (the clock was 4 hours out on the old meter so the cheap rates before 5pm were being calculated incorrectly!!)

From what I understood the 3 phase power set ups have 4 cables entering but single phase have only 3 (L1, L2, N).

You mentioned it was a 3 phase initially. Was it decided that this was a single phase in the end with L1, L2 and N?

Many thanks
 
threephase 2wirecornergrounded delta.png

Your supply is 'three phase 2 wire corner grounded delta' as in the diagram above but your line voltage is 225V (ish) instead of the 480V this diagram shows.

So in your home A is L1 and C is L2 and B is the earthed phase/line/neutral N.

Single phase supplies are derived by connecting between pairs of lines A-B, A-C and B-C.

Your UFH uses all these pairings to 'spread' the loading over the three lines/phases since this is a large long duration power demand and makes best use of capacity of the three lines to your home.

I did not delve into how all your other home final circuits are wired eg: lighting and sockets but I strongly suspect they are connected A-B thus L1-N, and B-C thus L2-N so that single pole switching may be used in the line/phase only because only L1 and L2 are at 225V wrt to N and E.... and N is at a low voltage wrt to E - I think we measured 20V ish.

When L1 and L2 are used the switching must be double pole as you have gathered from the contactor contacts wiring for the UFH because both lines are at 225V wrt to N and E.
 
Hi Marconi.

I believe this is how they have wired it. 2 of the UFH zones are tiny (1m2) bathrooms so use very little. Not 100% on the middle UFH but looks like they share the same cables.



Hi again,

Revisiting this set up from upstairs. I haven't added individual contactors yet with new neutral cables splitting them up.

My question/doubt now is about the power meter I have installed.

I have the 2 inputs of the power meter fed from the CBS outputs #4 and #5. I thought this would measure only 4 of the zones.

The red led on the power meter pulses depending on the power going through it. Remains green when no power is going through it.

Now what I observed is that it measures power from all 6 zones here. The led flashes at different rates for each zone UFH tested independently.

Is this due to the way the three phase 2 wire corner grounded delta works, and is capable of measuring the power used correctly for all zones?

Thanks in advance
 
In order to measure the power consumed by each of the three UFH zones the power meters P need to wired in between the zones and the contactor C as I have drawn in my attached diagram.

The same holds for elsewhere in your home to monitor power consumption by each UFH zone. So you should revisit how the power meters have been wired in - I cannot do that for you because I can no longer open any attached images in previous posts.

The total power consumption of your home however is measured by two meters - you might have thought three were required. For a three phase three wire system only two meters are necessary; the total power consumption being the sum of the two readings. Blondel's theorem if you want to look it up. My second attachment shows how they are connected. Note how the two meters are both connected to the third line N/L3.

If there were three meters they would be connected as in the last drawing, one in each line and the meters then connected to a common star node. Simply by making one of the lines common to the power meters one of the three meters becomes superfluous and an economy can be made.

Blondel's theorem:

Blondel’s theorem | Power in Poly-Phase System | Electricalvoice - https://electricalvoice.com/blondels-theorem-power-in-poly-phase-system/
 

Attachments

  • ufhpowermeter.png
    ufhpowermeter.png
    31.2 KB · Views: 7
  • homepower meter.png
    homepower meter.png
    22.3 KB · Views: 6
  • powermeterstar.png
    powermeterstar.png
    21.8 KB · Views: 5
In order to measure the power consumed by each of the three UFH zones the power meters P need to wired in between the zones and the contactor C as I have drawn in my attached diagram.

The same holds for elsewhere in your home to monitor power consumption by each UFH zone. So you should revisit how the power meters have been wired in - I cannot do that for you because I can no longer open any attached images in previous posts.

The total power consumption of your home however is measured by two meters - you might have thought three were required. For a three phase three wire system only two meters are necessary; the total power consumption being the sum of the two readings. Blondel's theorem if you want to look it up. My second attachment shows how they are connected. Note how the two meters are both connected to the third line N/L3.

If there were three meters they would be connected as in the last drawing, one in each line and the meters then connected to a common star node. Simply by making one of the lines common to the power meters one of the three meters becomes superfluous and an economy can be made.

Blondel's theorem:

Blondel’s theorem | Power in Poly-Phase System | Electricalvoice - https://electricalvoice.com/blondels-theorem-power-in-poly-phase-system/

Many thanks Marconi.

I do have one doubt - the current set up I have to read the power seems to register power going through UFH 1 and 2 as labelled also which surprised me. I thought it would have only read power on the other lines to the UFH. In fact, it registers power for each UFH if turned on individually.

Is it giving me false readings set up this way?

Appears to read about 1.1 Kwh for the large UFH 1 and 0.2 Kwh for 2 (small bathroom 1.5m2) which I expected but as mentioned I would not have expected it to read any power for these 2 the way it is connected.
Rather confused.

Regards
[automerge]1595421683[/automerge]
Just going to double check my drawing later - see if I have identified the connections from and to the PM correctly.
 

Attachments

  • PMUpstairs.jpg
    PMUpstairs.jpg
    70.5 KB · Views: 5
Last edited:
If I do need the 2 power meters to measure accurately the 3 phase upstairs following the 3rd setup would this be the correct way to wire them up?

Still curious why my current one PM set up connected to just the L2 and N/L3 is measuring power for all 6 UFH zones.

Thanks
 

Attachments

  • PMUpstairs2.jpg
    PMUpstairs2.jpg
    65.7 KB · Views: 6

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Green 2 Go Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses Heating 2 Go Electrician Workwear Supplier
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

Advert

Daily, weekly or monthly email

Thread starter

Joined
Location
Uruguay
If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
All Other Countries (This Is English Speaking Website Only - WE don't mind Google Translate Users :)
What type of forum member are you?
DIY or Homeowner (Perhaps seeking pro advice, or an electrician)

Thread Information

Title
Changing original 32Amp contactors for solid state relays?
Prefix
N/A
Forum
Electric Underfloor Heating Wiring
Start date
Last reply date
Replies
87

Advert

Thread statistics

Created
Yonny24,
Last reply from
Yonny24,
Replies
87
Views
23,151

Advert

Back
Top