View the thread, titled "Coding for earths wrapped around each other?" which is posted in Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification on Electricians Forums.

HappyHippyDad

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Hello all..

I have just completed an EICR.

The earths for the ceiling lights are wrapped around each other (neatly and well, numerous times) and sheathed in old green sheath. They are then poked up into the ceiling void. This is obviously all wrong nowadays, but I can't decide if it's a C2 or C3. I would think C3? They are making a very good connection with each other, probably better than sheathed separately and clamped down with a screw too tightly! However, It would be good to hear opinions :)
 
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Probably as good as the twist on wire connector nuts, which I'm surprised are still permitted, and as it tests satisfactorily and unlikely to be disturbed in normal use I would think C3 too.
 
Code 2 it is not a mechanical connection nor are they suitably enclosed.
Could I ask if you ever did this in the past Westward? Genuine question as I believe you were around back in the olden days ;-) (could get a temporary ban for that). But it really is a genuine question. Was it common place, even amongst good electricians to terminate the earths this way?
 
Could I ask if you ever did this in the past Westward? Genuine question as I believe you were around back in the olden days ;-) (could get a temporary ban for that). But it really is a genuine question. Was it common place, even amongst good electricians to terminate the earths this way?
Never done it (I'm not that old) and I doubt it was ever a prescribed method for terminating cpcs.
 
526.1 Every connection between conductors or between a conductor and other equipment shall provide
durable electrical continuity and adequate mechanical strength and protection.
 
not suitably enclosed though.... however good the joint is... it cant just be poked into the ceiling
526.1 Every connection between conductors or between a conductor and other equipment shall provide
durable electrical continuity and adequate mechanical strength and protection.
I think we are all in agreement it is a non-compliance. The issue is, is it a C2 - Potentially Dangerous or C3 in need of an improvement?
EICR's can be very subjective and we all have our reasons and opinions, that's the beauty of forums like this. Everyone can state theirs rightly or wrongly. We are never going to always agree!
 
I think we are all in agreement it is a non-compliance. The issue is, is it a C2 - Potentially Dangerous or C3 in need of an improvement?
EICR's can be very subjective and we all have our reasons and opinions, that's the beauty of forums like this. Everyone can state theirs rightly or wrongly. We are never going to always agree!
No enclosure, not terminated properly. Its a c2
 
Could I ask if you ever did this in the past Westward? Genuine question as I believe you were around back in the olden days ;-) (could get a temporary ban for that). But it really is a genuine question. Was it common place, even amongst good electricians to terminate the earths this way?
It was common to join earths by twisting outside of junction boxes before I started. I've never done it myself, but it was not at all uncommon to come across it on fairly recent work.
 
Since when did cpcs have to be enclosed or even insulated? Mechanically protected if less than 2.5mm2, and joined properly, yes, so you could possibly argue these two as C2, but not the lack of enclosure per se.
 
Since when did cpcs have to be enclosed or even insulated? Mechanically protected if less than 2.5mm2, and joined properly, yes, so you could possibly argue these two as C2, but not the lack of enclosure per se.

17th Edition

Circuit protective conductors (cpcs) are not always terminated properly at accessories, Instances have been observed of protective conductors being terminated outside a junction box.


The snag with this method of termination is that the protective conductors are more likely to suffer damage due to being unenclosed and unprotected. A damaged cpc or connection could result in failure of the circuit to disconnect under earth fault conditions, leading to a risk of electric shock or fire.

The cores of sheathed cables must be enclosed. Regulations 526-03-02 and 526-03-03 refer.

Regulation 526-03-03 deals with the enclosure of the cores of cables from which the sheath has been removed and Regulation 526-03-02 gives details of the permitted types of enclosures. All the conductors of the cable must be taken into the junction box and terminated. The protective conductor must be terminated at each accessory, as required by Regulation 471-08-08.

A copper protective conductor of cross-sectional area less than:

2.5 mm2
4 mm2

must be contained within the enclosure formed by a wiring system (Regulation 543--01-01 refers).

Regulation 471-08-08

In every installation which provides for protection against indirect contact by automatic disconnection of supply, a circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lamp holder having no exposed conductive-parts and suspended from such a point.

Regulation 526-03-03

Cores of sheathed cables from which the sheath has been removed and non-sheathed cables at the termination of conduit, ducting, or trunking shall be enclosed as required by Regulation 526-03-02.

Regulation 526-03-02

Every termination and joint in a live conductor or a PEN conductor shall be made within one of the following or a combination thereof:

a suitable accessory complying with the appropriate British Standard
an equipment enclosure complying with the appropriate British Standard
a suitable enclosure of material complying with the glow-wire test requirements of BS 6458-2.1
an enclosure formed or completed with building material considered to be non-combustable when tested to BS 476-4
an enclosure formed or completed by part of the building structure, having the ignitability characteristic 'P' as specified in BS 476 part 5.

Regulation 543-01-01 (part of)

The cross-sectional area of every protective conductor, other than an equipotential bonding conductor, shall be:

calculated in accordance with Regulation 543-01-03, or
selected in accordance with Regulation 543-01-04.

If the protective conductor:

is not an integral part of a cable, or
is not formed by conduit, ducting or trunking, or
is not contained in an enclosure formed by a wiring system;

the cross-sectional area shall not be less than 2.5 mm2 copper equivalent if protection against mechanical damage is provided, and 4 mm2 copper equivalent if mechanical protection is not provided.
 
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17th Edition

Circuit protective conductors (cpcs) are not always terminated properly at accessories, Instances have been observed of protective conductors being terminated outside a junction box.


The snag with this method of termination is that the protective conductors are more likely to suffer damage due to being unenclosed and unprotected. A damaged cpc or connection could result in failure of the circuit to disconnect under earth fault conditions, leading to a risk of electric shock or fire.

The cores of sheathed cables must be enclosed. Regulations 526-03-02 and 526-03-03 refer.

Regulation 526-03-03 deals with the enclosure of the cores of cables from which the sheath has been removed and Regulation 526-03-02 gives details of the permitted types of enclosures. All the conductors of the cable must be taken into the junction box and terminated. The protective conductor must be terminated at each accessory, as required by Regulation 471-08-08.

A copper protective conductor of cross-sectional area less than:

2.5 mm2
4 mm2

must be contained within the enclosure formed by a wiring system (Regulation 543--01-01 refers).

Regulation 471-08-08

In every installation which provides for protection against indirect contact by automatic disconnection of supply, a circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lamp holder having no exposed conductive-parts and suspended from such a point.

Regulation 526-03-03

Cores of sheathed cables from which the sheath has been removed and non-sheathed cables at the termination of conduit, ducting, or trunking shall be enclosed as required by Regulation 526-03-02.

Regulation 526-03-02

Every termination and joint in a live conductor or a PEN conductor shall be made within one of the following or a combination thereof:

a suitable accessory complying with the appropriate British Standard
an equipment enclosure complying with the appropriate British Standard
a suitable enclosure of material complying with the glow-wire test requirements of BS 6458-2.1
an enclosure formed or completed with building material considered to be non-combustable when tested to BS 476-4
an enclosure formed or completed by part of the building structure, having the ignitability characteristic 'P' as specified in BS 476 part 5.

Regulation 543-01-01 (part of)

The cross-sectional area of every protective conductor, other than an equipotential bonding conductor, shall be:

calculated in accordance with Regulation 543-01-03, or
selected in accordance with Regulation 543-01-04.

If the protective conductor:

is not an integral part of a cable, or
is not formed by conduit, ducting or trunking, or
is not contained in an enclosure formed by a wiring system;

the cross-sectional area shall not be less than 2.5 mm2 copper equivalent if protection against mechanical damage is provided, and 4 mm2 copper equivalent if mechanical protection is not provided.
Could you go into a little more detail please, you haven't quite persuaded me. :-)

Edit... I can't see your regulations in bs7671?
 
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17th Edition

Circuit protective conductors (cpcs) are not always terminated properly at accessories, Instances have been observed of protective conductors being terminated outside a junction box.


The snag with this method of termination is that the protective conductors are more likely to suffer damage due to being unenclosed and unprotected. A damaged cpc or connection could result in failure of the circuit to disconnect under earth fault conditions, leading to a risk of electric shock or fire.

Meh, I know it's not correct and never was but I've seen it done a thousand times on old work and done properly never an issue. Also not sure whats going to come along and damage a connection thats inside a ceiling void! Back in them days 4 terminal JB's cost more don't you know!!

Although if it's more recent work then it stinks of the bodge, I'd be leaning towards an FI and recommendation of checking every connection point.
 

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HappyHippyDad

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Coding for earths wrapped around each other?
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