Commercial PIR on a LARGE site.

[Festerfly]

Right, i've been asked to organise a commercial PIR on a Large site which i do a lot of Maintenance electrical work. I haven had to deal with this side of things on such a large scale before and although easy enough to break down into smaller sections for testing & recording purposes my main concern is with the pricing side of things? I have read as much as i can about how others have been pricing their PIR's both Commercial and Domestic but at present i can not be sure of exactly how many circuits there are on site. There has been no previous PIR and there have been around 15-20 different sparkys on site over the years doing various works here and there mostly unrecorded but remembered by different members of staff etc. I have a list of the number of DB's on the site and their locations which was compiled around 4-5 years ago but it does no more then just list their locations and QTY. The boards are a mix of 50's examples right through to a couple of more recent Hager and Crabtree units. Imagine that 70-80% of the Circuits are un-labeled and a mix of office/workshop/kitchen/storage/external etc.

All in a fairly major job which would have to be completed in stages as the majority of the site can not be shut down Mon - Sat due to the nature of the business.

There are two of us attending the PIR itself with the possibility of an extra 'apprentice' style person for general running around, dogsbody kind of stuff as and when required due to the layout and size of the site.

Sorry for the vagueness of the question overall, but im still trying to get my head around where to start on something of this scale...

Thanks

 

[johnboy6083]

if its very large and complicated, then a fair dayrate? or is it worth taking a hit on the PIR, in order to gain future works from it? i would definately work in pairs, as when ive worked with the senior sparks doing initial verifications on larger sites, its so much easier to have two of you, and it avoids a lot of confusion.

 

[Sintra]

My advice would be attend the site and carry out a survey. Look in every db and cu and count the circuits. This way you can put in a price per circuit and you won't be far off. The other option is to give a price per circuit to the client and count them up at the end from the pir.

 

[Mr Mark Sparks]

i agree you really need to do the survey then factor the survey time into the price and hope you get the work
this sounds like the sort of thing that will need 1/2hour 2 men per circ therefor 1man hour per circ

sounds like the remedial work could be a gold mine

 

[IQ Electrical]

Right, i've been asked to organise a commercial PIR on a Large site which i do a lot of Maintenance electrical work. I haven had to deal with this side of things on such a large scale before and although easy enough to break down into smaller sections for testing & recording purposes my main concern is with the pricing side of things? I have read as much as i can about how others have been pricing their PIR's both Commercial and Domestic but at present i can not be sure of exactly how many circuits there are on site. There has been no previous PIR and there have been around 15-20 different sparkys on site over the years doing various works here and there mostly unrecorded but remembered by different members of staff etc. I have a list of the number of DB's on the site and their locations which was compiled around 4-5 years ago but it does no more then just list their locations and QTY. The boards are a mix of 50's examples right through to a couple of more recent Hager and Crabtree units. Imagine that 70-80% of the Circuits are un-labeled and a mix of office/workshop/kitchen/storage/external etc.

All in a fairly major job which would have to be completed in stages as the majority of the site can not be shut down Mon - Sat due to the nature of the business.

There are two of us attending the PIR itself with the possibility of an extra 'apprentice' style person for general running around, dogsbody kind of stuff as and when required due to the layout and size of the site.

Sorry for the vagueness of the question overall, but im still trying to get my head around where to start on something of this scale...

Thanks

Is there any chance of doing the job on night shift? Makes things so much easier, especially when dealing with distribution boards that aren't labelled!

If you quote a day rate, you won't get the job, the client wants as close as he can get to a firm, fixed price.

As has already been said, glean as much information as possible, this can help you be more competitive and stop you from taking a hit on unforseens!

Check on access to any high level works, scissor lift costs etc.

check your insurances, PI and PL, you NEED to have PI in place to cover yourself on this type of job!

 

[Festerfly]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm in there for some other works this week any way so will take my list of DB locations and count the circuits. I know my way around the site pretty well so shouldent be an issue gaining access. My thoughts
Are leaning towards the do the available works daytime and the unavailable works at night. Just got to work out the right rate for this etc.

The remedials will all come to me anyway. But agreed, I can already think of one or two urgent ones off the top of my head.

 

[mogga]

count the number of circuits then add around 50% to allow for unlocated ones

 

[accordfire]

Right, i've been asked to organise a commercial PIR on a Large site which i do a lot of Maintenance electrical work. I haven had to deal with this side of things on such a large scale before and although easy enough to break down into smaller sections for testing & recording purposes my main concern is with the pricing side of things? I have read as much as i can about how others have been pricing their PIR's both Commercial and Domestic but at present i can not be sure of exactly how many circuits there are on site. There has been no previous PIR and there have been around 15-20 different sparkys on site over the years doing various works here and there mostly unrecorded but remembered by different members of staff etc. I have a list of the number of DB's on the site and their locations which was compiled around 4-5 years ago but it does no more then just list their locations and QTY. The boards are a mix of 50's examples right through to a couple of more recent Hager and Crabtree units. Imagine that 70-80% of the Circuits are un-labeled and a mix of office/workshop/kitchen/storage/external etc.

All in a fairly major job which would have to be completed in stages as the majority of the site can not be shut down Mon - Sat due to the nature of the business.

There are two of us attending the PIR itself with the possibility of an extra 'apprentice' style person for general running around, dogsbody kind of stuff as and when required due to the layout and size of the site.

Sorry for the vagueness of the question overall, but im still trying to get my head around where to start on something of this scale...

Thanks

As with the consensus - do a site survey first if you can - get as much info as you possibly can.

Night time testing is an option too, if you can get in, as it is less likely to matter if you inadvertently switch something off without realising (likely if you don't know what is on a circuit). Having to do all the testing on a Sunday otherwise will affect your costs too I guess.

There's been hot discussion of this lately in another thread..........as to cost generally.

So, this time, what I will say is arrive at a cost per circuit, and multiply by the number of circuits (plus, as another says, a margin for "missed" circuits). Either that or count boards, and arrive at a "day" or "night" rate allowing say a shift per board up to twelve ways or so. That should give you a ballpark for now, given you say you have a list of locations and quantities.

Don't forget to factor in a cost for documenting the circuit, board legends, and so forth, and any admin around the job too.

 

[Festerfly]

***UPDATE***

Okay, i found the DB list i was passed a year or so ago. This was compiled by a local firm back in Summer 2008. i know i said it was a large site, but honestly, i was shocked when i looked over it again just now......

As of AUG 2008


105 Boards (mix of SP & TP. Mostly TP)

Approx 836 Circuits to be tested!!!!!!!


GULP!

Any wise words??? lol


still speechless to be honest.. major works!

 

[IQ Electrical]

That's a small High School to us, daunting when you do your first of that size though!

Think of it as small installations, be sure to find out the origin of each board you test, this can save you absolute nightmares at the end and assist greatly should a distribution schematic be required.

If you use certification software, get a laptop on site and key in the data as you test, otherwise, you've got literally hours of data input time when the testing's complete.

Keep a list of DB's with you and 'highlight' them off as they're completed so you have an accurate idea of where you are and what you have left.

Stock up on labels (next inspection, rcd test, 2-colours etc) we always include for applying rcd and 2-colour labels as we test.

 

[Festerfly]

That's a small High School to us, daunting when you do your first of that size though!

Think of it as small installations, be sure to find out the origin of each board you test, this can save you absolute nightmares at the end and assist greatly should a distribution schematic be required.

If you use certification software, get a laptop on site and key in the data as you test, otherwise, you've got literally hours of data input time when the testing's complete.

Keep a list of DB's with you and 'highlight' them off as they're completed so you have an accurate idea of where you are and what you have left.

Stock up on labels (next inspection, rcd test, 2-colours etc) we always include for applying rcd and 2-colour labels as we test.

Really do appreciate your input.. as you say, its a little daunting when you look at the bottom line number of circuits etc.... Was planning on breaking it down into manageable chunks as you say. Just treat it like lots of houses! Must admit the thought of my major materials costs being labels is going to please my bank balance.. but not my supplier! lol

Quite looking forward to hopefully doing it tbh.. they need it doing either way.

Thanks again.. just need to work the pricing now!

 

[IQ Electrical]

Really do appreciate your input.. as you say, its a little daunting when you look at the bottom line number of circuits etc.... Was planning on breaking it down into manageable chunks as you say. Just treat it like lots of houses! Must admit the thought of my major materials costs being labels is going to please my bank balance.. but not my supplier! lol

Quite looking forward to hopefully doing it tbh.. they need it doing either way.

Thanks again.. just need to work the pricing now!

I can't help on price, other threads have shown that the differences in proportion to overhead and geography are rather large!

Go for it!

 

[Festerfly]

Cheers. Thought i would chat it through with them. Don't want to be over the top but still need to make sure i am not working for nowt. as i'm having to pay the other chap too!

 

[accordfire]

***UPDATE***

Okay, i found the DB list i was passed a year or so ago. This was compiled by a local firm back in Summer 2008. i know i said it was a large site, but honestly, i was shocked when i looked over it again just now......

As of AUG 2008


105 Boards (mix of SP & TP. Mostly TP)

Approx 836 Circuits to be tested!!!!!!!


GULP!

Any wise words??? lol


still speechless to be honest.. major works!

Heh - lots of work on one site can seem daunting to start with.

There's two things here - doing the work, and making sure you don't forget you've a business to run meanwhile (especially finding work after it).

I think you say somewhere it is only possible to test on a Sunday, or maybe out of hours.

Your best plan, then, is to set up a number of Sundays, and target a set number of boards each time - and see if you can perhaps invoice on completion of each weekend's work, for the completed boards. That'll help with cash flow and paying your lad. Try to sort some type of staged payment anyway.

As for costs.......yeah. I don't know what area you are in, or what the going rate in your neck of the woods generally is, but one consensus here seems to be that it is feasible to test fifteen circuits a day or so (our lot generally aim for a 12-14 way board in a day). On that basis, you have around 60 man days worth of work, assuming 14 ways a day.

I'd be looking at doing this a slightly different way if it was me, I think. Assuming two of you, that's still around thirty weekends worth of work for you both, plus a margin for issues and error. That's why I say above you need staged payments - a month and more's worth of work with no income?

The lowest charge I've seen in the many posts concerning this kind of thing was £25 a circuit (I'd probably worry round here about what I wasn't getting in that low a charge) - that would be putting you around £21k ball park anyway. Your mate is probably going to be looking for his share anyway - I don't know what you pay him, but for weekend work, he's going to want to be considered well.......

I'd tend to be looking towards something like maybe saying your hourly rate, plus a margin for test certs, plus weekend working. Ball park to me given the general opinions elsewhere, and trying to take an average for this case, would be £35 - £40 a circuit. That runs you £29k - £33.5k or so overall. A lot of it depends on what your costs to DO the job will be.

At the rate of two boards each Sunday, that's still going to take you over six months to complete - it might be worth getting prices from a few other local-ish guys to come in and help, maybe getting up to five or six boards a shift, and pricing accordingly.

 

[Festerfly]

Cheers Bill. I'm meeting with the Bosses today about some other works on site and one of the topics of conversation will be the PIR. I know the company well enough to suggest a day rate and then to just get on with it without them worrying about me billing for time I haven't done etc. It's just as you say, determining a rough bottom line figure and depends on how long they want to wait for a completed PIR?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Festerfly]

Little update this time..

Spent a couple of hours in the site offices scouring the for the previous EIC's and PIR's assumed done on site over the past 10-15 years.. we found 1xEIC for a small building extension comprising 4 circuits.. and that was dated 2006.. Time for a PIR methinks! Have been asked to provide a quote for the PIR based on the approx number of circuits and also a rough schedule of testing etc.. gonna be a long one.. need to get back to it... (buries nose in paperwork and slumps head on keyboard at shear size of it all!! lol)

 

[mogga]

when working out circuits remember to take into account from main incomer out each sub DB as a circuit as for pricing Firm I worked with expected each man to do 25 crcts a day no matter what if the guys did more than 25 they got £3 for every circuit I dont know what the client was charged

also in your quote add in a section that any code ones found(ie exposed live parts) are repaired at time and cost of parts immedietly

 

[Festerfly]

Thanks for the heads up.

I did already mention the code 1 situation and was met with an approving nod.

 

[accordfire]

Just a thought here..........

If, by the time you've quoted all this, you don't kick off until Jan - you may want to look at the Draft amendment, and make sure you're up to speed on "Condition Reports".... I think it's mostly a layout thing, and not an overhead in time, but worth thinking about.....

 

[Festerfly]

Just a thought here..........

If, by the time you've quoted all this, you don't kick off until Jan - you may want to look at the Draft amendment, and make sure you're up to speed on "Condition Reports".... I think it's mostly a layout thing, and not an overhead in time, but worth thinking about.....

good point... i think in all seriousness it would be a new year start anyway by the time all the paperwork has been sorted and suchlike. Must keep my eye put for the draft as soon as it becomes available.

Thanks for that.

 

[IQ Electrical]

good point... i think in all seriousness it would be a new year start anyway by the time all the paperwork has been sorted and suchlike. Must keep my eye put for the draft as soon as it becomes available.

Thanks for that.

It's published in July but not in force until 01/01/12

 

[accordfire]

It's published in July but not in force until 01/01/12

This link here is to the IET DPC Section, including downloads.

 

[malcolmsanford]

But be quick they take it off line by Jan 1st

 

[Festerfly]

Cheers guys.

 

[robswainelect]

I price per Dist Board.
Remember you are reporting on the condition of the electrical system, as it is. If you cant find circuits put it on the recommendation sheet, Unable to identify circuit.
I don't over price either, for the testing, as normally there is a lot of remedial works to be completed after the testing!

 

[IQ Electrical]

I price per Dist Board.
Remember you are reporting on the condition of the electrical system, as it is. If you cant find circuits put it on the recommendation sheet, Unable to identify circuit.
I don't over price either, for the testing, as normally there is a lot of remedial works to be completed after the testing!

How can you possibly do that, given the rather large variation in distribution board sizes?

The only logical way is a per-circuit price.

 

[robswainelect]

You should know the sizes before you quote!

 

[IQ Electrical]

You should know the sizes before you quote!

But that's my point, at the end of the day, you are still pricing per circuit!

 

[robswainelect]

Yes I suppose you are!

 

[Festerfly]

***latest update***

Back at the customers site to discuss some other works and to clarify a few details on this PIR also and the customer posed this question:-


Bearing in mind that there is NO existing paperwork in the form of a PIR or Valid EIC for the site electrical circuits in any way shape or form i am right in saying that they will need to have ALL circuits fully tested and reported not a 'basic' overall test just checking say 1 in 3 circuits and a quick visual inspection etc. My view was that with no prior test reports they should have a full and thorough PIR to give them a 'Baseline' for everything on site.

They have been given varying advice in the past concerning this hence the question. Wanted to confirm my thoughts on this.

One more step closer!

Cheers

 

[IQ Electrical]

In that situation, we would propose a full test and a 20% inspection.

If significant defects are revealed then the inspection percentage should be increased with agreement from the client as additional costs will be involved.

The primary reason for sampling is that faults would be introduced as a consequence of mass dismantling of the installation.

 

[Festerfly]

IQ,

Sorry for the late thanks but much appreciated. ive discussed this with the Customer and aside from confirming the pricing, we are looking to go with Testing plus 20% inspection plus increase as problem found etc.

Most of the works i have seen are likely to be remedial related unless the testing starts to show anything really untoward. Finally making some headway with this i think.. still very daunting though!

Theybe got lots of work needs doing along with the testing and now the PAT testing i due.. might aswell sign myself up for the year!

 

[IQ Electrical]

Make hay while the sun shines!

You'll find most of your defects will come from the visual inspection, damaged accessories, IP problems on DB's and panels etc.

Most of our testing identified defects are failed RCBO/RCD's, low IR's on older installations, and the odd exceeded Zs.

The PAT price is getting hammered at the minute, ridiculous prices reflecting the fact that anyone can be a 'PAT tester'. We stick firmly to our price per item unless there is an unusually large quantity, let the 75 pence an item brigade take it if they want it, we can't make money on that.

 

[nickblake]

no a full test of every circuit is required that will give you a base to monitor the condition for the next inspection , appart from all the testing what i would recommend is you lable the dist boards as you do them if there are more than one also lable the sockets switches outlets with whickh DB they are from and associated circuit 1 it makes life easier and you know what youve tested and also in the future if you have any work from them you can identify the circuits quickly , you have to identify every thing when your testing its so easy to do a quick lable ive just done a wholesalers with 14 Dist boards started off with DB1 which was the main one and ended up with DB 14 labled with 24mm yellow and black letters/numbers and 12 mm lable for all the accessories

 

[IQ Electrical]

I think by "Testing plus 20% inspection" he means a full test?

 

[tonys]

20% Inspection in my world means 20% sampling, because a full visual is the norm lol

 

[IQ Electrical]

20% Inspection in my world means 20% sampling, because a full visual is the norm lol

Absolutely, by inspection, I mean actually dismantling accessories etc.

I'd also get the labelling bit cleared up with the client, we always supply DB schedules as part of the inspection because it's the flick of a button and the printer does the rest but on the sites that we do with 1000+ circuits, it would be impossible to include labelling of accessories (there will be thousands) in with the standard PIR rate.

 

[tonys]

That's the thing, if you pick on areas where you think labeling is required ie a bank of isolators not identified as to what they do, you would put that in with the report, then its up to the client what they intend to do about it.

I don't think people fully understand the concept behind PIR'S.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Just as a point of interest.
What code would you apply to lack of circuit identification in this or similar instances?
Would your choice of code be affected by the number of unidentified circuits?

 

[Festerfly]

I thought IQ meant was as he said only dismantling say 20% of the faceplates / accessories etc.

Really appreciate everyones input thank you. Makes it easier to clarify all points with the customer prior to starting.