Consumer Unit change???how far do you go with testing??????

[mgnelec09]

Consumer unit changes can be a nightmare depending on the property, age, state of wiring.
People shiver at the thought of needing a rewire so opt for the new board instead.

Just aquick question to see what you think regarding the extent of testing with a new board?

 

[nickblake]

Full tests no cutting corners on these , if you rush or miss out tests then you may well find a multitude of problems when you re energise and realistically you should carry out basic tests prior to doing an upgrade ie R1&R2 insulation , shared neutrals etc so much easier to identify these faults first nothing worse than powering up a new board to find the RCD trips when its 5 at night

 

[malcolmsanford]

All the Tests that the EIC Schedule of Test Results require. And Reg 131.8 should be your guide.

So really it is like how long is a piece of string. You have to assess the point of fitting that nice new CU to an old installation, after all no good fitting a new engine to a car, if the brakes, gearbox, exhaust etc is shot, and the same for a new CU.

 

[telectrix]

like fitting a brass knob on a **** house door

 

[Bigboy247]

Test everything before hand (PIR) this will give you all the answers and information you require to base your price and give the customer a price and not scare them to death with extras. As for testing GN3 no short cuts in this game, its there safety and you reputation as you sign those certs.

 

[egginyourface]

surely rcd protection is better than reliance on rewireable fuse protection. and testing usually brings out faults on the installation.

 

[nickblake]

like fitting a brass knob on a **** house door

Mine is brass whats wrong with that !!!

 

[Guest123]

As has already been said an EIC is required for a DB upgrade.

However, be sure to state clearly that only the work you have carried out is covered by your cert in the 'extent covered' box.

 

[Dunc]

Usually when pricing for a consumer unit change I give it in two parts. The first being for carrying out a PIR on the property to ascertain whether or not additional work will be required to rectify existing problems then the second part is for the CU change itself. Most people are happy with this as it means that if all is not well with their electrics I can do a second quote for the remedials and there's no hidden extras. Full EIC is issued at the end of every CU change once I'm satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the installation is safe.

 

[ezzzekiel]

all the way

 

[Liamsparks]

Same as others, would always carry out a full PIR first before changing board and charging for the PIR too!

 

[mgnelec09]

I agree and do carry out the necessary tests. however the amount of times ive been in a wholesaler and this has come up with this answer.
Why are you testing existing or other peoples work? "Just make sure you test exactly what you have installed ( ie the tails)."
When arguing my corner they reply as ive seen in this thread " Yea but surely having all your circuits protected by an rcd is safer than old Wylex rewireable fuses....

 

[nickblake]

I agree and do carry out the necessary tests. however the amount of times ive been in a wholesaler and this has come up with this answer.
Why are you testing existing or other peoples work? "Just make sure you test exactly what you have installed ( ie the tails)."
When arguing my corner they reply as ive seen in this thread " Yea but surely having all your circuits protected by an rcd is safer than old Wylex rewireable fuses....

Yes the installation may be safer with RCD's but you dont want to rely on these , cutting corners can reasault in people getting injured and causing fires , if you carry out all the tests as per the EIC then you have done the job correctly and you have peace of mind that you have done a proper job , it doesnt take much current 15ma will still give you a nasty shock if a piece of equipment is live and being low current may not trip the RCD , What people forget is RCD are not the be all and end all, they fail

 

[mgnelec09]

Ok All?

I have spoke to the NICEIC technical advisors today regarding the CU testing scenario.

This is what they state.

R1+R2 tests to be carried out on all existing circuits along with insulation resistance to verify whether the existing circuits are in a safe condition to be re-energised in a new consumer unit.

However, these tests are for just for verification with no need to carry out full testing and certification on the existing circuits.

The only part of the installation to be fully tested and certified is the Consumer unit itself after the installer is satisfied that all outgoing circuits are safe to energise.

This may or may not help you guys!

 

[telectrix]

so, what niceic appear to be saying is that you should do R1+R2 and IR,just for verification, but not enter readings on the EIC. sounds crazy to me.

 

[mgnelec09]

They said you can record your results but not essential.
The guy said the importan thing is to make sure the parts that you have installed are safe and correct, also making sure that the earthhing protection is in place for gas, water, main earth is correct size.
The reason for carrying out the dead tests is to determine any potential faults that may cause a danger or affect the rcd.

 

[mark80]

The 'technical advisor' didnt answer the phone saying 'howdy partner' did he? as it seems to me the NIC are the cowboys, advising stuff like that............. agree with you telectrix, crazy!

 

[mgnelec09]

Come to think of it he did say his name was John Wayne!!!!?

 

[egginyourface]

I test IR and r1+r2 at random points on every circuit about 25%. If I find no continuity of circuits i Note it down on cert and that it need further investigation. (reccomend full periodic inspection). I leave it up to the house holder to decide.

example is a short time ago i was called out to a house on a Sunday night where existing board had melted due to bad connection on mains switch. I got there and said i will change the board and issue cert for this only. went back the nex day and did a test on sockets and lights, found all the earths had been cut on the lights. made a note of this. explained the danger to the house holder and he said he was having trouble paying his mortgage and couldnt afford to pay me to to do a full pir and repair.

what would you do in this situation??

 

[telectrix]

treat it as a noc cpc on lighting and label CU. note on your EIC as well. be a bit drastic to leave him with no lights, but you, as the spark on site, are the only one to make the call depending on the danger level.

 

[egginyourface]

I dont know any people that are ready to pay to do a full pir, then pay for a board upgrade then a new install cert at the end.

Like you say telectrix as the sparks on site its your call.

 

[telectrix]

if he has metal lights/switch plates, i'd do a dangerous installation notice.

 

[egginyourface]

All light switches were white plastic, light fittings on the other hand were metal, fancy chanderleers to. I think i need me some of these dangerous installation sheets

 

[nickblake]

That sounds abit odd to me you dont have to note the readings im sorry its notifiable work so that falls under section 6 of the building regulations Quote a section of 6.1.1 of the guide to building regs Competent persons are required to provide a self certification certificate to the occupier and a notice to that effect ,Part P requires that electrical installations to be inspected and tested as nessesary during and on completion of the work and before they are handed over or put into service ,so how can you only test the board ,and do R1 and R2 and insulation prior to changing it im sorry i dont care what the NIC say but i will do it as ive always done that is a full test , basic tests before i change the board and a full test after , at the end of the day its my name on the cert , oh and how can you give the customer a copy of it as required under Part P if you dont fill one out

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Ok All?

I have spoke to the NICEIC technical advisors today regarding the CU testing scenario.

This is what they state.

R1+R2 tests to be carried out on all existing circuits along with insulation resistance to verify whether the existing circuits are in a safe condition to be re-energised in a new consumer unit.

However, these tests are for just for verification with no need to carry out full testing and certification on the existing circuits.

The only part of the installation to be fully tested and certified is the Consumer unit itself after the installer is satisfied that all outgoing circuits are safe to energise.

This may or may not help you guys!

Not registered with the NIC and they do NOT make the rules. They like making their own up. The IET write the regs.

Answers already been posted. You should budget to test everything or you're cutting corners....... I do loads that involve a full PIR. I don't charge the earth and sleep well at night. If you leave a house that needed a board change because it was melting (done several) how could you not test everything?

 

[egginyourface]

I tested ring circuits,r1 + r2 at all points,,,IR readings were good.... I tested Lighting points and earth was missing so noted on the cert. Ze & Zs, boinding etc..

what else am i supposed to do start ripping the place apart lifting floor boards.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

egginyourface

maybe misread what you've posted, sounds pretty comprehensive. Got two kids underm y feet so only seconds to read

 

[nikmet]

how long on average do you spend on pir, including certification, and how much? i am interested in how much the customers are willing to pay before you start work on the consumer unit replacement? thx

 

[egginyourface]

how long is a piece of string

 

[SPARTYKUS]

nikmet

how much do you charge a day? Lets say £195.

How much is a dual RCD board, a few stickers, on line notification, EIC, 10 miles of diesel and maybe an MET and a few meters of 10mm2. A ton? So thats.... £295

Make sure its clear that any faults found are extra to be rectified (and get a signed contract).

2 bed semi. a LONG day. I could PIR everything (and I mean everything, every socket off, every light, wander lead to every metal point required, every switch, ......everything) and then change the board and polish it at the end in 10 hours.

In example above I would perhaps charge another £100.

SO

thats nearly £400 for a days work with (at a stretch) a £100 of materials (including diesel and all the notification etc).

Not a bad day really walking with £300 net (or thereabouts). I know people that struggle to earn that a week.

And alot of sparkies think thats cheap

 

[nikmet]

thanks spartykus for taking the time to post a informative reply to my question, it answered clearly everything that i asked, and 100% agree with u mate

 

[egginyourface]

what area are u in spartykus, that is cheap. how many way board is that?

 

[JamesBrownLive]

example is a short time ago i was called out to a house on a Sunday night where existing board had melted due to bad connection on mains switch. I got there and said i will change the board and issue cert for this only. went back the nex day and did a test on sockets and lights, found all the earths had been cut on the lights. made a note of this. explained the danger to the house holder and he said he was having trouble paying his mortgage and couldnt afford to pay me to to do a full pir and repair.

what would you do in this situation??

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BPG1v2_web.pdf

 

[SPARTYKUS]

what area are u in spartykus, that is cheap. how many way board is that?

8 way, nothing fancy. Come on, don't be clever! They can be bought for 50-60 quid even as a member of public

Like I say in the post egginyourface, £300 clear (in a day) is more than some people turnover a week.

don't be greedy!!!!

 

[egginyourface]

true spartykus,,,

 

[nickblake]

Is the guy insured could have been a fire by what your describing you could see if he can claim off his insurance for a new board and remidial works cover it all in one job

 

[egginyourface]

Im still learning so that didn't even cross my mind. is it best to mention it before giving price as you could rinse it a a bit if insurance is paying

 

[nickblake]

Always worth mentioning it a bit as if you do come accross any problems slightly increasing the cost will cover them , but you shouldnt really go down the lines of increasing because the insurance are paying , at the end of the day the more people that do that the higher premiums we all have to pay

 

[egginyourface]

lol...im not gona miss a chance to get something out of a system thats bleeding me dry

 

[VMan]

Always worth mentioning it a bit as if you do come accross any problems slightly increasing the cost will cover them , but you shouldnt really go down the lines of increasing because the insurance are paying , at the end of the day the more people that do that the higher premiums we all have to pay

Maybe but many time we have had to make extra calls to the insurance companies, chase up cheques and even met up with loss adjusters this is all time and at then end of the day someone has to pay why should it be us??