Cooker control unit - inside cupboard?

[acvc]

I'm sure it's in the Building Regs green book not to fix to kitchen furniture. The qualifier used there is "should not". So I suppose that means preferably not, but if you have to do it, then ok.

Surely a way forward from this lack of clarity is to label the cooker/oven stating clearly where the closest isolation is located, e.g. 'Emergency Switch located at back of/inside right wall of cupboard below this cooker/oven". Obviously, the switch and cupboard must be below, not above.

I know it might not look too pretty, but we have to label other switches to indicate what they control elsewhere, such as FCUs for the dishwasher/washing machine don't we?

So: anywhere within 2 m, easily accesiible, fixed to kitchen furniture if no other option and noted on Cert, and its location clearly labelled on the applaince itself. .

 

[professional]

The issue of kitchen cabinets and wiring accessories has been floating around for years. Forget Part P, it`s irrelevant rubbish with regards to regulations - it is BS7671 that we

ust work to and will be judged by if push comes to shove. The requirement is that wiring accessories should only be located on PERMAMENTLY fixed items, effectively

aking them part of the fabric of the building. The idea that such items exclude the use of fitted kitchen cabinets is a throw-back to the days of seperate,

oveable kitchen units - and the great leviathons that are the IET and ESC have never updated their attitudes to encompass change within OUR industry.

With regards to accessability of the cooker switch - I fear that this will remain a grey area- use common sense - be prepared to argue your point if need be with your assessor ( I ALWAYS HAVE - and have gained greater respect bacause of it!).

Remember, if you feel that you are not being allowed to use common sense (or being listened to by your scheme provider) you should vote with your wallet.............

 

[ohmeelectrical]

The electricians guide to the building regs (part p) states that wiring accessories should be mounted on the building fabric and not on kitchen furniture (it is in section 5.2 Kitchens and see regulation 530.4.2 of BS7671).
It goes on to state that integrated appliances should be connected to either a readily accessible socket of be fed by a double pole isolator or fused connection unit that is readily accessible. It is a fundamental principle that an isolator be easily recognised and effectively and rapidly operated as it may be used as an emergency control (regulation 132.9 BS7671). An isolator hidden in a kitchen unit clearly does not comply with this regulation.
An assessor would probably not see a switch in a unit as a major non-compliance, but could pull you up on a bad day.

 

[sparks72]

The issue of kitchen cabinets and wiring accessories has been floating around for years. Forget Part P, it`s irrelevant rubbish with regards to regulations - it is BS7671 that we

ust work to and will be judged by if push comes to shove. The requirement is that wiring accessories should only be located on PERMAMENTLY fixed items, effectively

aking them part of the fabric of the building. The idea that such items exclude the use of fitted kitchen cabinets is a throw-back to the days of seperate,

oveable kitchen units - and the great leviathons that are the IET and ESC have never updated their attitudes to encompass change within OUR industry.

With regards to accessability of the cooker switch - I fear that this will remain a grey area- use common sense - be prepared to argue your point if need be with your assessor ( I ALWAYS HAVE - and have gained greater respect bacause of it!).

Remember, if you feel that you are not being allowed to use common sense (or being listened to by your scheme provider) you should vote with your wallet.............

The most sensible post I have ever read, under part "pee" we have
building inspectors who have become Electrical inspectors..............."overnight" !!!
I am seeing more & more amateur questions regarding even the most simple of installations over & over again !

 

[professional]

The electricians guide to the building regs (part p) states that wiring accessories should be mounted on the building fabric and not on kitchen furniture (it is in section 5.2 Kitchens and see regulation 530.4.2 of BS7671).
It goes on to state that integrated appliances should be connected to either a readily accessible socket of be fed by a double pole isolator or fused connection unit that is readily accessible. It is a fundamental principle that an isolator be easily recognised and effectively and rapidly operated as it may be used as an emergency control (regulation 132.9 BS7671). An isolator hidden in a kitchen unit clearly does not comply with this regulation.
An assessor would probably not see a switch in a unit as a major non-compliance, but could pull you up on a bad day.

Where in BS7671 does it state that fitted kitchens are NOT to be used for fixing accessories i.e. that fitted units are NOT part of the fabric of the building?

I don`t bother reading guidance notes - every set is different. Read BS7671 and forget all of the politically

otivated drivel.

 

[sparks72]

Where in BS7671 does it state that fitted kitchens are NOT to be used for fixing accessories i.e. that fitted units are NOT part of the fabric of the building?

I don`t bother reading guidance notes - every set is different. Read BS7671 and forget all of the politically

otivated drivel.

Someone who had their grubby mitts in creating part "pee"
should clarify it has nothing to do with BS7671, why part "pee" was created I'll never know,
job creation springs to mind

 

[ohmeelectrical]

Where in BS7671 does it state that fitted kitchens are NOT to be used for fixing accessories i.e. that fitted units are NOT part of the fabric of the building?

I don`t bother reading guidance notes - every set is different. Read BS7671 and forget all of the politically

otivated drivel.

BS7671 is requirements for electrical installations and does not go into detail about all scenarios. It is not the sort of publication in which you would expect to find a statement that fitted units are not part of the fabric of the building!
The guidance notes help to fill in the gaps in 7671 and to cover areas not mentioned in the regs.
One notable omission in BS7671 17th edition is any mention of BS3871 mcbs. You will find max efli's for them in the on site guide, if you only had BS7671 you would be guessing. Some of the guidance notes contain material that is not in the current edition of BS7671 but which was included in earlier editions.

 

[mazdaman]

As long as you have reasonable access to it and the home owner knows its location then it should not be cause for concern or be a problem. The same can be said for consumer units in cupboards if you have a flood at the lights!! As long as there is easy access to it but note it down on the electrical certificate then you are covered.

 

[professional]

Insurance underwriters regard fitted kitchen units as part of the fabric of the building which makes perfect sense.

I no longer require a collection of secret committees (of very dubious makeup) to make simple decisions for me - I am perfectly capable of doing my own thinking - I wish more people were prepared to do the same..........

Until practicing sparks are actively involved in drawing up workable, practical guidelines for real-world situations I will continue to use my own judgement which I feel to be more appropriate than the politically motivated rubbish that we are being subjected to at the moment.

How few realise that the ESC is effectively controlled by commercial interests - under the guise of "safety"? - why do you think that the ESC and scheme providers do not want us to have the option of improving the safety of an installation without carrying out so much remedial work that many simply cannot afford? – to generate the income for us to pay them of course! This is referred to in the industry as the "work escalator" which benefits the large contractors the most, as this makes more jobs financially viable for them to get involved with.

If sparks spoke to their scheme providers technical line THEN spoke to the IET technical line they will usually get an answer along the lines of "who the hell told you that - you`ll never stay in business like that - the regs don`t require that!" etc, etc ,etc.

The ESC etc. have tried to create the myth that their meanderings are mandatory and backed up/required by the regs - this is simply NOT the case!

We should be working to BS7671 - plain and simple. The IET should be producing guidelines and not leaving us in the hands of the sharks and charlatans that we have no choice but to pay money to.

 

[JohnJohn]

It seems readily accessible means different things to different people.
1. Some kitchen designs have a wall for isolators/CCU to be located at.

2. Some have no walls, meaning an FCU has to be located in a adjacent (within 2m for a cooker/oven/hob). For example, an Island unit, or in the case of wall to wall tall kitchen units.

3. The other issue is Part M and the height of sockets (between 450mm to 1.2m) - but does this apply in kitchens?
For instance, isolators above tall oven housing units, or under sink cupboards (which usually don't have a drawer).

4. Whether readily accessible means emergency use of service maintenance only.

5. Whether readily accessible means out of sight in a cupboard because it is behind a door. A CU has a cover/door...

6. Whether other items in a cupboard could affect access to the isolators. Perhaps position the isolators near the front and not at the back?

If there was a special guidance note on kitchen installations, covering the different kitchen designs we have and explicitly stating what was allowed, rather than through interpretation, it would us all time and expense.

Disclaimer: i'm not a qualified electrician, just trying to get my head around it all as I learn.

 

[ukpablo]

i have done this on three occasions...............had no choice, no room on wall, needed to put in cupboard next to cooker. noted on cert, was part of my last assesment, was fine too.
would only do this as a last option though.

 

[Des 56]

I think there are a lot of people who tend to think of cooker controls as an emergency switch
It then becomes very important (with that impression) for the accessability to be completely unrestricted

I believe they are wrong,the cooker switch in the cupboard is no big issue with myself,
I dont tend to put them in cupboards ever,but would if it was necessary, or the client wanted it done that way

There is argument about what is the fabric of a building,but if the rule makers are babbling different stories,who can argue with both interpretations made by us sparks being correct

 

[sparks72]

There is argument about what is the fabric of a building,but if the rule makers are babbling different stories,who can argue with both interpretations made by us sparks being correct

The rule makers are always making up stories, I heard some out & out spouted from one Electrical body in particualar, they seem to be trying to re-write BS7671 to suit themselves.

 

[1shortcircuit]

3. The other issue is Part M and the height of sockets (between 450mm to 1.2m) - but does this apply in kitchens?
For instance, isolators above tall oven housing units, or under sink cupboards (which usually don't have a drawer).

This is the exact reason that I am reading this thread at the moment

I am trying to find out whether I can install an FSU at the same height as the Kitchen extractor hood which is way above the 1200 stated in Part M.

This has been a great read from start to finish Hopefully someone would be kind enough to slip in the answer to my question so that I don't need to start another thread?

 

[telectrix]

no problem with FCU high up. it's sockets and switches that should be 450-1200. apart from which, the above applies only to new installs. not additions to existing installations

 

[flukey]

450-1200 doesnt include kitchens

 

[1shortcircuit]

no problem with FCU high up. it's sockets and switches that should be 450-1200. apart from which, the above applies only to new installs. not additions to existing installations

Thank You kindly.

I'm working on an old property that is being adapted for disabled occupants therefore needing to adhere to part M. I did want to be sure though that I could still mount the FSU up high as it is for maintenance isolation purposes and not emergency switching:thumbsup

 

[pushrod]

I think one one of the first statements in part P with regard to design is "reasonable provision" ie open to discussion. BS7671 in a non-statutory document ie it is not the law, but guidance.
"Rules are are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools" so said some ancient greek law maker. So if you know what the rules are and make your decisions with thought and reason i can't see that you will ever have a problem.

 

[JohnJohn]

"Part M does not apply to an extension of,or material alteration to a dwelling. However on completion, it must be no worse with respect to Part M. "
Part M document NAPIT MASTERCLASS 1 Part M document

So, installing a new kitchen design of an existing dwelling means Part M does not apply.

A few years ago back in the day, I had a sparky come round for a few sockets to be moved in the living room. He said to my mum, he would have to do the whole house to comply with Part M, moving every switch down from 130cm and every socket up. Con man!

1shortcircuit: Usually, they are placed just above the hood (but accessible when performing maintenance on the hood. Do NOT cover it using the hood! Part M doesn't apply for you. Label it though, 15 years ago when we had our kitchen done, it's still confusing which fcu is for the tumble dryer, washing machine or boiler!

If the 2m rule could be relaxed, it would be great to have a grid on the wall for all circuits, but it's the Zs that could become affected.

 

[1shortcircuit]

1shortcircuit: Usually, they are placed just above the hood (but accessible when performing maintenance on the hood. Do NOT cover it using the hood! Part M doesn't apply for you. Label it though, 15 years ago when we had our kitchen done, it's still confusing which fcu is for the tumble dryer, washing machine or boiler!

Thank You johnjohn. The premises is vacant whilst the complete downstairs is being altered so I have my cables in position and left plenty spare just in case i needed to relocate. The other reason for leaving spare is because nobody can confirm if there are wall units to be fitted???

The FSU I was going to locate to one side of the hood and use a non switched socket behind the hood but I am still undecided as yet until I get answers regarding the wall units.

Note taken onboard regarding the labelling of such units. I shall bare this in mind in future

I'm starting to wonder if I should have started a thread after all as I don't want to turn this into a hi-jack. Sorry OP:thumbsup

 

[JohnJohn]

You're wiring without a kitchen design

 

[ukpablo]

page 23 of GN3 gives some info on cooker control ccts regarding being low enough for accesibility, bottom of page.

 

[1shortcircuit]

You're wiring without a kitchen design

Don't ask lol

There is a kitchen design but it was never sent with delivery of the kitchen. There are electrical drawings that include a scale but it seems that whoever designed the kitchen doesn't have a clue about electrics and distances from items such as sinks and cookers Either that or it was a late Friday afternoon design by someone who had just been given their notice???

 

[ian]

17th Edition Guidance | New or Rewired Domestic and Similar Installations

NDQ16 & NDQ34. say it all.

ian

 

[robswainelect]

As long as the Isolator is accessible and can be reached, it is fine being mounted in a cupboard. I have had many inspections by the NICEIC and they never mention any problem regarding the isolator in the cupboard!

 

[cornburn]

Mine's in a cupboard, saved a tenner not having to get a brushed steel one to match that way It is in the wall though with a hole cut in the back of the carcass for access to that and a FCU for the hood. I don't want a million buttons all over my kitchen either, looks crap and they're things you never turn off anyway.