Couple of testing questions ? | Page 2 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Couple of testing questions ? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
731
Location
Ireland
Apologies gone a bit rusty on this stuff:

1) (Max) Resistance of protective conductor:


An Installation with a sub-board all pvc wiring

Is the max protective conductor resistance = the resistance of the protective conductor on the submain + the highest resistance CPC on the sub-board

Above in steel with parallel paths, structural steel etc.
How is the max protective conductor resistance measured here ?
I know you can work out the earth conductor resistance using L-N loop tests but what figure is recorded


2) Can someone explain simply the L-E loop test for ring circuits
This is used to measure R2 ?

Cheers
 
radial circuits...... , and I used 9 RCBOs
Radial circuits and rcbo, s (dual pole?) my dream CU
But anyway, it was very nice (and odd) not having any RFCs to test and I couldn't quite believe how quickly I got it all tested.
"Oi lad, s I believe we have a potential convert" 😊
 
To test they are a royal pain in connection with their simpler cousin the radial.

In general terms this is true, but I can't help wondering if Irish regulations stipulate how radial circuits must be installed or amended.

If it is mandated that such circuits follow a strictly linear form , then all is simple. If not; what's to stop future additions being taken from random points, with obvious testing issues arising as more than one end point can exist?
 
Oi lad, s I believe we have a potential convert" 😊
In many ways I already am.
We need to remember that the ring final circuit was designed in the 40's anticipating a shortage of copper when houses had far fewer sockets arranged generally in large squares. It was true then that you could serve a large area with a smaller gauge cable therefore using less total copper. I honestly don't think this logic stacks up today.

While I obviously maintain these circuits every day I don't often install new ones.
 
I quite like the ring final circuit myself.
During testing some from late 70s to around early 80s and untouched ones (no alterations or additions) around my area, generally they are in very good condition apart from the odd loose terminal or knackered outlet!
The main problem with them is people who don't quite have the skills to work on them but think they do (imho)
I think we should still try to reserve resources be that copper or the ever mounting pile of pvc that we keep adding to, none of these things are infinite!
Although I do like and use radial circuits as well, I think there is still a purpose for ring circuits and a time and place to use them.
Sy
 
Now that your question has been expertly answered your next challenge will be to locate a ring circuit within a hundred mile radius of your home. You might just find a few in Dublin, but they are rare.
In case you are planning to install any be aware they are forbidden in kitchens (the very area they are most valued in the UK). I suspect (but Don, t support) that they are nearing the electrical exit. You may also find you will be the only spark(Irish based) in 2022 to do so.
To test they are a royal pain in connection with their simpler cousin the radial.
Yes of course the ring circuit and ring final still have a place in industry /commercial and power distribution

Not so much in domestic imo although with the price of copper ?

As you say we're(ire) using multiple radials now in kitchens and utility, years ago it was a couple of rings

As you say the testing is a little complex for a basic circuit
 
To test they are a royal pain in connection with their simpler cousin the radial.
Not if you are testing to the same degree.

Let us consider the following scenario: We have two sets each of 10 * 13A sockets, one is a RFC, the other is a radial. In one of the 6 conductors there is a poor connection adding 0.1 ohms.
  • How would you identify which conductor has the fault?
  • Would your normal testing have revealed that?
Second variation on this scenario: One of the 20 sockets has a bad switch adding 0.1 ohms.
  • How would you identify the bad socket?
  • Would your normal testing have found that?
Now 0.1 ohms may not sound like much, and it is the VD of around 6-7m of 2.5m T&E. But at and example load of, say, 13A the I2R dissipation would be 16.9W, nothing to worry over 6m of cable but in the context of a joint at the back of a socket that is going to get very hot and either go in to thermal runaway if R increases, or at the least mean a melted socket and fishy smell.

Just to add this 2nd example is not so far feteched as I found one double socket in my flat that was 0.25 ohms high, even after operating the switch and repeatedly inserting/removing the test adaptor, it remained so. I removed it expecting to find water damage or something but it appeared perfect and was likely less than 10 years old! Changed it and all was well after that. I guess I never found it before the hard/smelly way as that outlet only ever had a 60W lamp or laptop charger powered from it.
 
Let us consider the following scenario: We have two sets each of 10 * 13A sockets, one is a RFC, the other is a radial. In one of the 6 conductors there is a poor connection adding 0.1 ohms.
  • How would you identify which conductor has the fault?
  • Would your normal testing have revealed that?
Point taken.
At initial installation my methods would pick this up on a radial, as I drive others crazy by insisting on IR and continuity testing at first fix with points wago'd together. I've been burned too many times by other trades damaging things and like to be able to prove with data if accidents have happened. (I know I'm odd but I like methodically evolving installations otherwise I wake up in middle of night wondering if I tightened something enough.)
So if I have R1+R2 and R1 + RN original readings I have a point of reference for when it's 2nd fixed. I admit that it would have to be a bit worse than 0.1 ohms out for me to spend long on it though.

On EICR's it's interesting that just because an RFC is easy to identify faults with we routinely do the tests even though it's quite a bit of work, but we don't tend to do an equivalent bit of work on radial circuits with a nulled wander lead checking R1 = RN and R2 is proportional. Maybe the wander lead should come out more....

Second variation on this scenario: One of the 20 sockets has a bad switch adding 0.1 ohms.
I've not yet seen anyone else test both sides of a double docket when doing a fig8 test, so maybe there is a 50% weighing on this one?!
 
So if I have R1+R2 and R1 + RN original readings I have a point of reference for when it's 2nd fixed. I admit that it would have to be a bit worse than 0.1 ohms out for me to spend long on it though.
That is exactly the point I was trying to get across. The usual test for a radial is to link L & CPC at the CU and then measure R1+R2 at the end socket (which you know, if just installed) and ideally at all sockets to proves polarity at each one (or if you don't know the end, or it might be a "tree" instead of "linear" radial so has more than one end so proving CPC continuity at one end is not telling you about the other branches).

What you get is proof of polarity and CPC continuity, and if the R1+R2 is sane you know it is probably OK and it would disconnect on a fault within time (even before a live Zs test).

But it is very unlikely you would spot a small resistive connection as you would not know the expected R1+R2 to that accuracy as you probably don't know the installed length to within a couple of meters, nor any tolerance on the cable (5%?).

You also do the same for L & N so get R1+RN which is excellent practice! But more than most do as it is not usually required :(

Whereas the end-end RFC continuity measurement specifies testing all three and to look for discrepancies between the measured resistances and the expected cable ratios.

On EICR's it's interesting that just because an RFC is easy to identify faults with we routinely do the tests even though it's quite a bit of work, but we don't tend to do an equivalent bit of work on radial circuits with a nulled wander lead checking R1 = RN and R2 is proportional. Maybe the wander lead should come out more....
Using a nulled wander lead is the simplest way to do the same, but a much greater pain in the posterior to actually do compared to the RFC end-end at the CU. More so if the site and any on-going use makes using a wander lead risky or impractical.

You could link L, N, and CPC at the CU and then measure all 3 pairs at the radial end to get R1+R2, R1+RN, and R2+RN to find out the same, but computing the individual conductor values is more work and most folk don't relish solving 3 simultaneous equations before lunch time.

Of course to spot an error you don't need to solve them, as you could check the expected ratios of the pairs of conductor CSA (e.g. if all 3 are the same, say singles in trunking, then all 3 measured pairs should be identical).

I've not yet seen anyone else test both sides of a double docket when doing a fig8 test, so maybe there is a 50% weighing on this one?!
In the above I meant checking sockets on both the RFC and the radial to find which was bad.

Though I do check both halves of double sockets as I have seen problems before, and I have had the luxury of not being under the same job time-pressure that professional sparks are to get it in and completed at the going rates.

Really the question was to look at the issue of testing using the "figure of 8" for the RFC. As every socket then should measure the same R1+R2 value it becomes easy to spot one that is high, either a spur (yeuch!) or a bad socket.

Doing the same check on each socket on the radial is harder to identify as, again, you probably don't know the cable length socket-socket to get an accurate idea of what each one's R1+R2 progression should be. (Same for doing R1+RN to check neutral for poor connections).

TL;DR Illustrating that the RFC test may be more work, but it gives much better fault coverage.
 
Last edited:
In general terms this is true, but I can't help wondering if Irish regulations stipulate how radial circuits must be installed or amended.
There are no stipulations regarding how a radial circuit is to be installed. And there is also no need for them.
If it is mandated that such circuits follow a strictly linear form , then all is simple. If not; what's to stop future additions being taken from random points.
There is nothing to prohibit a future addition from a random point. Just as a fused spur can be taken from a ring circuit at a random point. These types of"non-linear "radials were common in the past. They saved on copper.
, with obvious testing issues arising as more than one end point can exist?
What testing issues can arise.? I, m not aware of any.
 
There are no stipulations regarding how a radial circuit is to be installed. And there is also no need for them.

There is nothing to prohibit a future addition from a random point. Just as a fused spur can be taken from a ring circuit at a random point. These types of"non-linear "radials were common in the past. They saved on copper.

What testing issues can arise.? I, m not aware of any.

I don't see testing issues with any radial circuit, for a competent electrician, but I'd also make the smae statement about ring final circuits.

However, someone who is less able might struggle to properly test a radial circuit with several branches extending from it - just as they might struggle with a modified ring final.
 
There are no stipulations regarding how a radial circuit is to be installed. And there is also no need for them.

There is nothing to prohibit a future addition from a random point. Just as a fused spur can be taken from a ring circuit at a random point. These types of"non-linear "radials were common in the past. They saved on copper.
Agreed, electrically the cable limit is strictly protected by the MCB (without the 50% share assumed for RFC) so you can branch wherever you want.

Whether you should is another matter. I don't really like the 3 wires per terminal that a radial branch or RFC spur involves as many of the bad/open connections I have seen have been from one of the 3 not quite being in and gripped properly, but again that is really down to poor workmanship rather than any fundamental rule being broken.

There is an argument that such an open on a RFC is unlikely to be noticed by the user so not repaired, where as an open on a redial would stop some of it working so they get a sparky out. However, that would not apply to the CPC!

What testing issues can arise.? I, m not aware of any.
If you want to verify CPC continuity you need to check every end point, as checking the main "trunk" for example is not a test of the CPC going off to a side branch.

If you normally test R1+R2 at each socket then it makes no difference as you are doing that anyway, but if looking at a quick test then the end of the main trunk is not enough if there are branches.

The same is true of a RFC with spurs, and for the same reason. Which is another reason I dislike spurs (beyond the 3 wires in a terminal aspect) as they break the nice testability of a pure RFC doing end-end continuity.
 
Last edited:
Whether you should is another matter. I don't realy like the 3 wires per terminal that a radial branch
Agree. In fact in practice you will never see it. Unless the unexpected happens. But even then I prefer a Wago,ed JB to a socket with three 2.5,s in it.
If you want to verify CPC continuity you need to check every end point, as checking the main "trunk" for example is not a test of the CPC going off to a side branch.
Again its rare to encounter this situation. And in practice all points would be tested anyway. But you can always tell if there has been a "branch" taken off the radial or if there has been a JB installed somewhere by the Fli measurements you are getting. In a linear radial the readings will reflect that.
 
My point should have clarified that most of the problems with ring circuits stem from people messing with their intended form over the best part of a century.

I'm sure electricians in 2100 will find plenty of radial circuits that are problematic - at least they will if any modern homes last that long 😁
 

Reply to Couple of testing questions ? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

News and Offers from Sponsors

  • Article
Join us at electronica 2024 in Munich! Since 1964, electronica has been the premier event for technology enthusiasts and industry professionals...
    • Like
Replies
0
Views
228
  • Sticky
  • Article
Good to know thanks, one can never have enough places to source parts from!
Replies
4
Views
687
  • Article
OFFICIAL SPONSORS These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then...
Replies
0
Views
644

Similar threads

  • Question
He is after the four options for 1 and 2 of the multiple choice exam, probably optimistic someone will know this. Your question 3 in incomplete to...
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • Question
BS3871 type 3's have a similar shaped operating curve to BS60898 type C's. Any fault that will meet the disconnection time of 5s (for 63A...
Replies
5
Views
2K

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top