dangers associated with wiring earth to neutral in the consumer unit?

[overflow99]

I have some experience with Spanish electrics. Some stuff is just awful...and some is very good indeed.
My advice is simply that you employ a Spanish electrician from a reputable company and have him/her check your system completely for safety. This is unlikely to be expensive because it's a small system and, from my personal experience, Spanish electricians are not expensive, having an hourly rate quite a bit lower than many in the UK.
Clearly you are concerned about this, rightly so, thus a proper check is essential. As I said, the cost will be reasonable, and the safety and peace of mind do not have a cost.

Thanks Pirate for your reply and advice. Totally agree on the peace of mind aspect, which is why I wasn't happy having no earth in place. I'm going to give the administrators/community of owners another push about a community earthing point. So far there's been a couldn't care less attitude to this crazy foreigner looking something as innovative as being safe in your own home. Failing that I'll take the advice offered here, as really don't want anyone hurt due to my laziness. Thanks again!

 

[Mike Johnson]

The problem you will have with the lay people on the management committee is trying to explain that an RCD will not work effectively without a compliant earth, therefore opening up the possibility of electrocution (death), the problem is do they know what an RCD does.

 

[OnlQQker]

Might be worth a read OP..

It wont let me post the link so search

TT Earth Spike Installation questions​

There is something similar posted on engx.------.org

From 2020

 

[overflow99]

The problem you will have with the lay people on the management committee is trying to explain that an RCD will not work effectively without a compliant earth, therefore opening up the possibility of electrocution (death), the problem is do they know what an RCD does.

They look marginally interested for a moment, then shrug their shoulders.... Think as it's been like this for years

The problem you will have with the lay people on the management committee is trying to explain that an RCD will not work effectively without a compliant earth, therefore opening up the possibility of electrocution (death), the problem is do they know what an RCD does.

Think they're interested for a moment then shrug the shoulders... It's been like this for years and no ones got hurt is the predominant attitude...

 

[overflow99]

Might be worth a read OP..

Earth Rod

Might be worth a read OP..

It wont let me post the link so search

TT Earth Spike Installation questions​

There is something similar posted on engx.------.org

From 2020

Thanks will check it out when home later

 

[Mike Johnson]

Things move on, the latest in France is electrocution by using a mobile phone and charger in a bathroom, girl in bath electrocuted, father went in to save her and was also electrocuted, a correctly functioning RCD would have saved both of them.

 

[overflow99]

Things move on, the latest in France is electrocution by using a mobile phone and charger in a bathroom, girl in bath electrocuted, father went in to save her and was also electrocuted, a correctly functioning RCD would have saved both of them.

Sad indeed... A pet hate of mine, are the hand dryers blowing water all over an electrical socket below it, with you standing on the wet patch on the floor.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I don't know the legal regulations in Spain with regards to "duty of care", "corporate manslaughter" or even "Health and Safety" but they would come under the EU Regulations, you would need to look them up.

 

[Simon47]

As Mike hints at, if the management are aware of a danger and do nothing to mitigate it then they could be in deep trouble if something happens. If you are into theatrics you could try sonething like "So Mr X, you're stood in the dock and the prosecution asks why you did nothing about the safety issue reported - could you explain to the court why you let little <insert name of young child> be electrocuted for lack of any action ?"
Then follow up by listing possible prison sentences for things like manslaughter by gross negligence - whatever the law has over there. A realisation of serious potential consequences tends to concentrate minds.

But back to what your electrician has done ...
He's done a DIY attempt at TN-C-S for earthing which is normally only done along with PME (protective multiple earthing) - which are separate things.
In the UK, TN-C-S is only done by the DNO (distribution network operator) when they also have PME.
PME means that there are multiple points where the CNE (combined neutral & earth, akso known as PEN, protective earth and neutral) conductor is earthed. Thus is done to minimise the risks inherent in the earthing system - notably that a broken CNE can result in all your "earthed" equipment casings etc. becoming live.
Unless the electrician has positive confirmation of the presence of the multiple earthing points then what the has done is not PME and has introduced a significant rusk to try and mitigate a different risk. Notably, RCDs provide no protection againt a broken CNE fault.

 

[brianmoooore]

- notably that a broken CNE can result in all your "earthed" equipment casings etc. becoming live.

The "all" here is important. TNC-S regs on the consumer side of the installation, in the UK, are intended to ensure that ALL metal in reach that could have a relatively low resistance to earth is indeed dragged up to near the live voltage. The idea being, that like the bird perching unharmed on live overhead wires, if you touch 'live' metal with one hand and near equally 'live' metal with the other, you will not be electrocuted.

 

[overflow99]

I don't know the legal regulations in Spain with regards to "duty of care", "corporate manslaughter" or even "Health and Safety" but they would come under the EU Regulations, you would need to look them up.

I have tried putting the hard push on the administrators insinuating that not reacting to a serious problem with a serious incident such as the building burning down isn't going to be a good look.... Followed by, from my point of view, I don't want my granddaughter or wife injured or killed, which is why I'm being a pain, but nothing personal, against them.... They stopped replying to my emails.... Written evidence of ineptitude isn't a good look either I suppose.

I don't know the legal regulations in Spain with regards to "duty of care", "corporate manslaughter" or even "Health and Safety" but they would come under the EU Regulations, you would need to look them up.

 

[overflow99]

As Mike hints at, if the management are aware of a danger and do nothing to mitigate it then they could be in deep trouble if something happens. If you are into theatrics you could try sonething like "So Mr X, you're stood in the dock and the prosecution asks why you did nothing about the safety issue reported - could you explain to the court why you let little <insert name of young child> be electrocuted for lack of any action ?"
Then follow up by listing possible prison sentences for things like manslaughter by gross negligence - whatever the law has over there. A realisation of serious potential consequences tends to concentrate minds.

But back to what your electrician has done ...
He's done a DIY attempt at TN-C-S for earthing which is normally only done along with PME (protective multiple earthing) - which are separate things.
In the UK, TN-C-S is only done by the DNO (distribution network operator) when they also have PME.
PME means that there are multiple points where the CNE (combined neutral & earth, akso known as PEN, protective earth and neutral) conductor is earthed. Thus is done to minimise the risks inherent in the earthing system - notably that a broken CNE can result in all your "earthed" equipment casings etc. becoming live.
Unless the electrician has positive confirmation of the presence of the multiple earthing points then what the has done is not PME and has introduced a significant rusk to try and mitigate a different risk. Notably, RCDs provide no protection againt a broken CNE fault.

Thanks Simon, yes tried putting pressure on the building administrators. They stopped replying to emails but I started with the emails again last few days but with innocuous non earthing enquiries and they replied. Asked about the earthing again yesterday, did get a reply from a Secretary saying they would ask the Administrator and get back to me but again no reply today. In relation to the wiring in my apartment I've been googling in English and Spanish about joining earth to neutral as a means of creating an earth. I can't find anything where it is a method of earthing in Spain except for an individual saying he had done it this way in his own apartment. I did read somewhere that the lines are earthed every 500m on the way back to the substation. When I was using the socket tester the rcd test trip worked when orientated positive plug pin to positive socket recepticle but when turned upside down positive in to socket neutral it wouldn't trip. Is that what you mean by rcd not offering protection? In my mind that's a scenario where a tree brings down a neutral line in a storm or am I off the mark? Thanks again for your input!

 

[overflow99]

The "all" here is important. TNC-S regs on the consumer side of the installation, in the UK, are intended to ensure that ALL metal in reach that could have a relatively low resistance to earth is indeed dragged up to near the live voltage. The idea being, that like the bird perching unharmed on live overhead wires, if you touch 'live' metal with one hand and near equally 'live' metal with the other, you will not be electrocuted.

Thanks again Brian... In a scenario where my hand is on the fridge or I'm in the shower with the water heater on because my apartment is on rock am I going to likely get killed if a neutral break occurs or feel a tingle or worse. Or what us my biggest concern? thanks

 

[Mike Johnson]

When I was using the socket tester the rcd test trip worked when orientated positive plug pin to positive socket recepticle but when turned upside down positive in to socket neutral it wouldn't trip. Is that what you mean by rcd not offering protection? In my mind that's a scenario where a tree brings down a neutral line in a storm or am I off the mark? Thanks again for your input!

Most socket testers are only a device that short out between phase and earth, therefore orientating the tester to short out between earth and neutral would have no effect as they are already connected.

I did read somewhere that the lines are earthed every 500m on the way back to the substation

A tree bringing down an overhead neutral line would have to be within 500M of your property to have any detrimental effect on your supply.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Someone (individual) within the administration is responsible for H&S ask them who that is? you already have written evidence that they have been informed of a potentially serious omission to the electrical installation it is therefore they who will have to stand up in court and answer the question of why this issue was not addressed if someone is killed due to its omission.